Who does the best carbine/rifle classes?

[Wake27]

I’d have to disagree with that assessment of Pannone. He’s been rather unprofessional and a “mean girl” the last few years. He’s clearly threatened by one of his peers and the success that individual has had. I’ve trained with Pannone before but wouldn’t give him a dime today based on his childish behavior.

I also won’t give Pressburg a dime. His time as a cop impersonator (google Lake Arthur PD scam), and using his fake badge to try avoiding consequences for shooting his brother in law while drunk are not the qualities of character I want in an instructor.

That said, I’ll add a couple to the list. I’ve trained with Mike Seeklander and our very own Jack Leuba (F2S Consulting LLC). Both are very good instructors. Also Bill Peterson through TNVC is a very good instructor though I’ve only taken the NF101 with him.

Currently he seems to be mainly teaching pistol work but if Hilton Yam offers a carbine class I recommend jumping on it.

Finally I recommend Will Petty of Centrifuge. He is very good and his injured shooter work is the best I’ve seen. Full disclosure I’m a certified VCQB instructor through Centrifuge but I don’t teach outside my agency.

I didn’t train with Jack but I did shoot with him and a few others. Wouldn’t hesitate to pay him for a class.

Agree on Mike. I took a class with him in 2013 or 2014 and was entirely underwhelmed. I’ve written about it enough online that it probably seems like I’ve had multiple negative experiences which I have not, but I’ve been firmly against training with him ever since.


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[HCM]

I’d have to disagree with that assessment of Pannone. He’s been rather unprofessional and a “mean girl” the last few years. He’s clearly threatened by one of his peers and the success that individual has had. I’ve trained with Pannone before but wouldn’t give him a dime today based on his childish behavior.

I also won’t give Pressburg a dime. His time as a cop impersonator (google Lake Arthur PD scam), and using his fake badge to try avoiding consequences for shooting his brother in law while drunk are not the qualities of character I want in an instructor.

That said, I’ll add a couple to the list. I’ve trained with Mike Seeklander and our very own Jack Leuba (F2S Consulting LLC). Both are very good instructors. Also Bill Peterson through TNVC is a very good instructor though I’ve only taken the NF101 with him.

Currently he seems to be mainly teaching pistol work but if Hilton Yam offers a carbine class I recommend jumping on it.

Finally I recommend Will Petty of Centrifuge. He is very good and his injured shooter work is the best I’ve seen. Full disclosure I’m a certified VCQB instructor through Centrifuge but I don’t teach outside my agency.

Interesting. Have any links to examples of that?

Since we seem to be getting into the dirty laundry in the training industry, the short version is a for several years Mike Pannone has taken issue with some of the tactics caught in the centrifuge training vehicle CQB program which is popular with domestic LE here in the US. Pannone states his objections are based on his experience as a contractor in Iraq running soft skin vehicles. how much of this is legitimate criticism, and how much of this is Pannone driving business to his own vehicle tactics class would need to be judged for oneself.

Regarding Chuck Pressburg, the man left the military with an amazing skill set and a drinking problem. Not the first and won’t be the last to do so. And yes, he unintentionally shot his brother-in-law in an alcohol related incident, which unsurprisingly led to him getting clean and sober, and dealing with the underlying issues that lead to the drinking problem.

Pressburg was also one of a very long list of people in the firearms industry who obtain reserve police officer commissions from the lake, Arthur, New Mexico police department, in order to be able to carry a firearm under LEOSA. There was a very long list of Lake Arthur PD reserve officers. Long enough that if you shunned everybody on that list (think hundreds of names), there wouldn’t be many people left one could take class from. I don’t think that have any bearing on the incident with his brother-in-law.

Not looking to kick over an ant hill here, but there are well-known names in the training industry with equally serious, or worse things in their past. Some of those things are why they are now doing open enrollment training instead of whatever they used to do.

So while Pressburg may not be the best choice as a life coach, if you want to learn to shoot a rifle or a pistol better (or do so under NVG) he can make you a better shooter.

[Wake27]

I’d have to disagree with that assessment of Pannone. He’s been rather unprofessional and a “mean girl” the last few years. He’s clearly threatened by one of his peers and the success that individual has had. I’ve trained with Pannone before but wouldn’t give him a dime today based on his childish behavior.

I also won’t give Pressburg a dime. His time as a cop impersonator (google Lake Arthur PD scam), and using his fake badge to try avoiding consequences for shooting his brother in law while drunk are not the qualities of character I want in an instructor.

That said, I’ll add a couple to the list. I’ve trained with Mike Seeklander and our very own Jack Leuba (F2S Consulting LLC). Both are very good instructors. Also Bill Peterson through TNVC is a very good instructor though I’ve only taken the NF101 with him.

Currently he seems to be mainly teaching pistol work but if Hilton Yam offers a carbine class I recommend jumping on it.

Finally I recommend Will Petty of Centrifuge. He is very good and his injured shooter work is the best I’ve seen. Full disclosure I’m a certified VCQB instructor through Centrifuge but I don’t teach outside my agency.

Since we seem to be getting into the dirty laundry in the training industry, the short version is a for several years Mike Pannone has taken issue with some of the tactics caught in the centrifuge training vehicle CQB program which is popular with domestic LE here in the US. Pannone states his objections are based on his experience as a contractor in Iraq running soft skin vehicles. how much of this is legitimate criticism, and how much of this is Pannone driving business to his own vehicle tactics class would need to be judged for oneself.

Regarding Chuck Pressburg, the man left the military with an amazing skill set and a drinking problem. Not the first and won’t be the last to do so. And yes, he unintentionally shot his brother-in-law in an alcohol related incident, which unsurprisingly led to him getting clean and sober, and dealing with the underlying issues that lead to the drinking problem.

Pressburg was also one of a very long list of people in the firearms industry who obtain reserve police officer commissions from the lake, Arthur, New Mexico police department, in order to be able to carry a firearm under LEOSA. There was a very long list of Lake Arthur PD reserve officers. Long enough that if you shunned everybody on that list (think hundreds of names), there wouldn’t be many people left one could take class from. I don’t think that have any bearing on the incident with his brother-in-law.

Not looking to kick over an ant hill here, but there are well-known names in the training industry with equally serious, or worse things in their past. Some of those things are why they are now doing open enrollment training instead of whatever they used to do.

So while Pressburg may not be the best choice as a life coach, if you want to learn to shoot a rifle or a pistol better (or do so under NVG) he can make you a better shooter.

Forgot to include Chuck in my original response. Agreed on the life decisions maybe not making him the best overall role model but he’s the only one I’ve supported through Patreon. The more I teach, the more I understand how some instructors can just communicate more effectively to some students. Chuck’s method of explanation and connecting the dots just works for me. I’ve had more lightbulb moments listening to him than most people I’ve actually shot with so he’s absolutely near the top of my list to find a class with.


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[Clusterfrack]

I’m training with Brian and Doug from PFC right now in a 4 person class. Can’t say enough good things. https://pfctraining.com/firearms-training/

[El Cid]

Interesting. Have any links to examples of that?

As HCM posted, the list of douchebags who played fake cop for $400 a year is out there (see link below). As for Pannone, I don't care if he disagrees with other instructors. Not all will have the same techniques or reasons for using them. It's why I try to train with a variety - I can almost always take away something useful. But the day he posted a photo of Petty on his IG with a dildo photoshopped in place of his pistol (because Pannone hates Temple Index), I lost all respect for him as a professional. How far he has fallen since the class I was in. There he lectured us on not using the slang term "Brokeback" for urban prone because it could affect his .gov contracts. I'm certain I saved the image in case he deleted it from his IG, but cannot find it presently.

https://www.krqe.com/news/playing-co...adge-scheme-2/

[WobblyPossum]

I’m with @HCM regarding the Lake Arthur thing. Keeping in mind that the list available on the KRQE page is not complete because a bunch of people resigned right before the story broke so they weren’t featured on the list of reserve officers, that’s a ton of people in the training industry. A bunch of those people are quite well liked, respected, and recommended on this forum. If you refused to train with anyone associated with that debacle, you’d be cutting off a good percentage of the available traveling trainers. The whole thing was a douchebag idea and a dick move by the participants, but it’s definitely not the worst thing I’ve heard of happening in the training industry.

[Sig_Fiend]

Fair enough and thanks, all, for the feedback. Sorry if I stirred up anything that didn't need to be, as that certainly wasn't my intent. There's a reason I try not to hero worship anyone. We're all flawed, have our egos, etc. Compared to my thoughts maybe 10yrs ago, I've come to realize NO ONE can ever pass a "purity test". As long as someone isn't actively pushing or doing bad or dangerous stuff with malicious or unethical intent, I think it's incredibly wasteful to demonize them. Just my opinion. Take the best and all that.

As far as the LEOSA thing, I mean I get it. Can't say I hold that against anyone. I've known a few that have gone the reserve route in different areas almost solely for that purpose. It is what it is.

[El Cid]

As far as the LEOSA thing, I mean I get it. Can't say I hold that against anyone. I've known a few that have gone the reserve route in different areas almost solely for that purpose. It is what it is.

I have no heartburn over reserve officers as they fill an important role in many agencies. But most reserve officers still must be certified police officers. They get training in the law and how to apply it. They also pick up shifts and do work. The douchebags from Lake Arthur paid $400 a year for a badge and ID card. Most just wanted a national carry permit and sacrificed their integrity to do so. The worst of the bunch tried to live out some bizarre fantasy - see Dan Bilzerian trying to get a gun from a cop during the Vegas shooting by claiming he was a cop.

I always hear people say others were able to resign before the list went public. Yet nobody knows who these mystery douches were. @HCM

[Rocky Racoon]

If you refused to train with anyone associated with that debacle, you’d be cutting off a good percentage of the available traveling trainers. The whole thing was a douchebag idea and a dick move by the participants, but it’s definitely not the worst thing I’ve heard of happening in the training industry.

Long enough that if you shunned everybody on that list (think hundreds of names), there wouldn’t be many people left one could take class from. I don’t think that have any bearing on the incident with his brother-in-law.

Not looking to kick over an ant hill here, but there are well-known names in the training industry with equally serious, or worse things in their past. Some of those things are why they are now doing open enrollment training instead of whatever they used to do.

I'm okay with cutting off a good percentage. There are plenty of others that didn't pay for a badge. And the fact that I don't know every single person that had a paid-for-badge doesn't mean I'm going to give the ones I do know about a pass. We lock up criminals every day and no one says to ignore it because a bunch of other criminals didn't get caught. How is this different?

As far as other things being worse in the training industry, that's just a whataboutism. Stalin killed more than Hitler, but that doesn't mean we should overlook what Hitler did.

Didnt Langdon self report himself as a previous member of group?


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I get that Pannone has strong feeling about the temple index. I do, too. But he has some 'angry old man' energy going on on Instagram. And he and X-Ray Alpha picked an unnecessary fight with Mike Glover. That's not criminal and wouldn't prevent me from taking a class. But I get it if it turns others off and drives them away. He should probably chill online.

[HCM]

I have no heartburn over reserve officers as they fill an important role in many agencies. But most reserve officers still must be certified police officers. They get training in the law and how to apply it. They also pick up shifts and do work. The douchebags from Lake Arthur paid $400 a year for a badge and ID card. Most just wanted a national carry permit and sacrificed their integrity to do so. The worst of the bunch tried to live out some bizarre fantasy - see Dan Bilzerian trying to get a gun from a cop during the Vegas shooting by claiming he was a cop.

I always hear people say others were able to resign before the list went public. Yet nobody knows who these mystery douches were. @HCM