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Thread: Dogs killing people

  1. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    So, these are my observations based on about 15 years working exclusively in emergency departments and 4 years in the ICU. Probably the most common breed that I saw involved in bites that needed any emergency treatment was the mutt. Most were small-medium dogs that delivered a single bite to the hand or face after what appeared to be a reflex to being grabbed or startled. Often the bite involved an inadequately supervised child-dog interaction. When it comes to major, life-or-limb, and fatal bites, the pit bull is by far the most common culprit that I’ve seen. I also recall one fatality involving 2 Rotties, and perhaps a chow or akita. However, each year I see at least one person on my trauma ICU census who was fuuuucked-up by a pit. Unlike the more minor bites from other breeds/mutts, these attacks disproportionately involve a dog that delivered multiple bites or actually hunted down its prey (too often a child) that wasn’t even on its territory. I can honestly say that I’ve never seen life-threatening injuries from the more common household breeds (although I’m aware of a child being killed by the dad’s K-9/GSD partner)..

    Finally, people who post stuff about trusting their dog implicitly around their children, or how sure they are of their dog’s loyalty to their child are kidding themselves. They are kidding themselves and putting both their dog and child at risk. They are putting too much faith in the dog, their child’s behavior, and their own parenting abilities. Grow up, stop thinking that your dog and child are special, and be a better dog owner and parent.
    Very interesting thanks for sharing.


    Agree completely with the last statement. I have a high level of trust in our dog but would never leave her unsupervised with our children. Shes just a dog. I’ve always felt continued professional training was one of the best things we could give her. Helping her be the dog she and we want her to be.
    “Archer not arrow. No such thing as a perfect pistol. Until you commit to being a better archer, you’ll keep hunting for a better arrow.”

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  2. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    That's an obscenely biased site.

    Total numbers of attacks, fatal or otherwise, are of limited relevance if it's not compared to total populations of all dogs and all breeds in the same area.
    Do they offer any of that data anywhere? I couldn't find it on the site.
    If total numbers of dogs go down, total numbers of bites will go down. If there's a prevalence of a given breed in an area, there's likely to be a prevalence of that breed in anything involving dogs, good or bad.

    I have a feeling that those folks have an axe to grind, and if they could show that a relatively smaller population of Pit Bulls were involved in a disproportionate number of bites or fatalities vs lots of other dogs in a given area, they'd show that data and be pointing at it to demonize them even further. Instead, they imply it and just point to broad total tallied numbers. I don't have a lot of faith in the 'Pit Bull Mix' numbers, either.
    I can speak from experience that once LE or animal control is involved in an incident with a dog, 'Pit Bull Mix' becomes a default checkblock unless it's irrefutably obvious that the dog is another breed. Much like how absolutely every MVA starts of with 'speeding' being a contributing factor and that sticks regardless of whether or not it was true, unless of course you've got very obvious and irrefutable proof otherwise. I can speak to that one, too, and it took GPS telemetry and dash cam footage to prove it.

    Ultimately that's a lot of the same BS anti-gun types run against guns. Move the goalposts, ignore the whole truth, just scream and stomp your feet until you get results congruent with your confirmation bias. Convince other people who have no experience via pretty graphs and cute pictures of safe & happy kids and soft colors. It's formulaic at this point.
    Since you raised concerns about the website being biased I emailed them and here is the response:

    Our critics -- pit bull owners and pit bull advocates -- have long attacked us. We document US fatal dog maulings, all of them and all breeds. The CDC stopped doing this in 1998.

    https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-st...collection.php


    Combat their broad, generalized and baseless "bias" claims with specifics. These types cannot offer specifics nor can they refute them.

    For instance, "Do let me know "which" fatal dog attack you allege this group invented? The death of 9-year old Tyler Trammell-Huston, killed by his sister's three darling pit bulls? The death of 6-year old Cameron Hartfield, killed by a pit bull his mother was trying to rehome? The death of 7-year old Jayden Henderson, killed by her neighbor's two pit bulls, whose owners tried to get the dogs returned to them afterward? Which death is made up? Which death did DogsBite.org say was inflicted by a pit bull but was not? Every single fatal dog attack on that website is backed by numerous citations. https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-st...-citations.php

    Our credentials --

    "Research and statistical data from DogsBite.org has exceptional credibility with appellate court justices, surgeons and medical practitioners, attorneys who champion and represent dog mauling victims, the injured victims themselves, and the many local, regional and national news agencies which cite their data, including Forbes, Newsweek and more. Their data collection method has long been online as well: https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-st...collection.php

    In addition to the incident I posted involving the children on a farm I had a separate incident prior to that that I had to use my 1911 to stop an imminent pit bull attack on myself. I got the dog to stop about 20 feet from me by bullets close enough to the dog that if it had dodged in the wrong direction it would have been hit.

    Neither of these instances were gang bangers or criminals but average everyday dog owners and Ive never been in LE.
    I'll wager you a PF dollar™ 😎
    The lunatics are running the asylum

  3. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    That's an obscenely biased site.

    Total numbers of attacks, fatal or otherwise, are of limited relevance if it's not compared to total populations of all dogs and all breeds in the same area.
    Do they offer any of that data anywhere? I couldn't find it on the site.
    If total numbers of dogs go down, total numbers of bites will go down. If there's a prevalence of a given breed in an area, there's likely to be a prevalence of that breed in anything involving dogs, good or bad.

    I have a feeling that those folks have an axe to grind, and if they could show that a relatively smaller population of Pit Bulls were involved in a disproportionate number of bites or fatalities vs lots of other dogs in a given area, they'd show that data and be pointing at it to demonize them even further. Instead, they imply it and just point to broad total tallied numbers. I don't have a lot of faith in the 'Pit Bull Mix' numbers, either.
    I can speak from experience that once LE or animal control is involved in an incident with a dog, 'Pit Bull Mix' becomes a default checkblock unless it's irrefutably obvious that the dog is another breed. Much like how absolutely every MVA starts of with 'speeding' being a contributing factor and that sticks regardless of whether or not it was true, unless of course you've got very obvious and irrefutable proof otherwise. I can speak to that one, too, and it took GPS telemetry and dash cam footage to prove it.

    Ultimately that's a lot of the same BS anti-gun types run against guns. Move the goalposts, ignore the whole truth, just scream and stomp your feet until you get results congruent with your confirmation bias. Convince other people who have no experience via pretty graphs and cute pictures of safe & happy kids and soft colors. It's formulaic at this point.
    Quote Originally Posted by UNK View Post
    Since you raised concerns about the website being biased I emailed them and here is the response:

    Our critics -- pit bull owners and pit bull advocates -- have long attacked us. We document US fatal dog maulings, all of them and all breeds. The CDC stopped doing this in 1998.

    https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-st...collection.php


    Combat their broad, generalized and baseless "bias" claims with specifics. These types cannot offer specifics nor can they refute them.

    For instance, "Do let me know "which" fatal dog attack you allege this group invented? The death of 9-year old Tyler Trammell-Huston, killed by his sister's three darling pit bulls? The death of 6-year old Cameron Hartfield, killed by a pit bull his mother was trying to rehome? The death of 7-year old Jayden Henderson, killed by her neighbor's two pit bulls, whose owners tried to get the dogs returned to them afterward? Which death is made up? Which death did DogsBite.org say was inflicted by a pit bull but was not? Every single fatal dog attack on that website is backed by numerous citations. https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-st...-citations.php

    Our credentials --

    "Research and statistical data from DogsBite.org has exceptional credibility with appellate court justices, surgeons and medical practitioners, attorneys who champion and represent dog mauling victims, the injured victims themselves, and the many local, regional and national news agencies which cite their data, including Forbes, Newsweek and more. Their data collection method has long been online as well: https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-st...collection.php

    In addition to the incident I posted involving the children on a farm I had a separate incident prior to that that I had to use my 1911 to stop an imminent pit bull attack on myself. I got the dog to stop about 20 feet from me by bullets close enough to the dog that if it had dodged in the wrong direction it would have been hit.

    Neither of these instances were gang bangers or criminals but average everyday dog owners and Ive never been in LE.
    My copy and paste missed this part of their response

    DogsBite.org documents U.S. fatal dog maulings inflicted by all dog breeds. We have documented at least 46 dog breeds involved in fatalities between 2005 and 2020. Most recently, we have devoted a significant amount research to protection trained and bite work dogs that kill, none of these cases involved pit bulls.
    I'll wager you a PF dollar™ 😎
    The lunatics are running the asylum

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNK View Post
    Since you raised concerns about the website being biased I emailed them and here is the response:

    Our critics -- pit bull owners and pit bull advocates -- have long attacked us. We document US fatal dog maulings, all of them and all breeds. The CDC stopped doing this in 1998.

    https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-st...collection.php


    Combat their broad, generalized and baseless "bias" claims with specifics. These types cannot offer specifics nor can they refute them.

    For instance, "Do let me know "which" fatal dog attack you allege this group invented? The death of 9-year old Tyler Trammell-Huston, killed by his sister's three darling pit bulls? The death of 6-year old Cameron Hartfield, killed by a pit bull his mother was trying to rehome? The death of 7-year old Jayden Henderson, killed by her neighbor's two pit bulls, whose owners tried to get the dogs returned to them afterward? Which death is made up? Which death did DogsBite.org say was inflicted by a pit bull but was not? Every single fatal dog attack on that website is backed by numerous citations. https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-st...-citations.php

    Our credentials --

    "Research and statistical data from DogsBite.org has exceptional credibility with appellate court justices, surgeons and medical practitioners, attorneys who champion and represent dog mauling victims, the injured victims themselves, and the many local, regional and national news agencies which cite their data, including Forbes, Newsweek and more. Their data collection method has long been online as well: https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-st...collection.php

    In addition to the incident I posted involving the children on a farm I had a separate incident prior to that that I had to use my 1911 to stop an imminent pit bull attack on myself. I got the dog to stop about 20 feet from me by bullets close enough to the dog that if it had dodged in the wrong direction it would have been hit.

    Neither of these instances were gang bangers or criminals but average everyday dog owners and Ive never been in LE.
    Quote Originally Posted by UNK View Post
    My copy and paste missed this part of their response

    DogsBite.org documents U.S. fatal dog maulings inflicted by all dog breeds. We have documented at least 46 dog breeds involved in fatalities between 2005 and 2020. Most recently, we have devoted a significant amount research to protection trained and bite work dogs that kill, none of these cases involved pit bulls.
    Respectfully, if you're continuing to post anecdotes and appeals to emotion, and reference their own site for it's veracity -Might as well reference Everytown for gun safety's website for honest data on so-called 'gun violence'- then clearly we are talking past each other.
    There's tons of doctors that are vehemently anti-gun, and carry on with specifics on terrible gunshot wounds suffered by kids and innocent folks, and how terrible those so-called 'high powered' AR15's are and how nobody should have one, etc. That's not a strike against their knowledge and skill as a physician, it's a natural human response to someone who's never seen or understood the net positive of an armed populace. They blame guns and the companies that make them instead of the people that store them negligently around kids or strangers, leave them in their car to be stolen, or pick them up with evil in their hearts.
    It's very much a 'can't see the forest through the trees' scenario.

    This really isn't all that different, especially once we accept that if pit bulls were all summarily and ex-judicially executed overnight, the career criminal shitbird assholes that like tough aggressive evil dogs will start breeding and abusing another breed to make their tough evil aggressive dogs.

    What I will not do is play tit-for-tat statistical cherrypicking & mud-flinging in a pointless attempt to change your mind. Frankly, I doubt there's anything I could conjure up from any source that you would accept as compelling, accurate, or relevant. So I'm not going to waste any more time trying to change your mind, which is clearly closed and solidly decided on a stance here.

    I'll bow out of this thread now.

  5. #115
    Site Supporter 41magfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    So, these are my observations based on about 15 years working exclusively in emergency departments and 4 years in the ICU. Probably the most common breed that I saw involved in bites that needed any emergency treatment was the mutt. Most were small-medium dogs that delivered a single bite to the hand or face after what appeared to be a reflex to being grabbed or startled. Often the bite involved an inadequately supervised child-dog interaction. When it comes to major, life-or-limb, and fatal bites, the pit bull is by far the most common culprit that I’ve seen. I also recall one fatality involving 2 Rotties, and perhaps a chow or akita. However, each year I see at least one person on my trauma ICU census who was fuuuucked-up by a pit. Unlike the more minor bites from other breeds/mutts, these attacks disproportionately involve a dog that delivered multiple bites or actually hunted down its prey (too often a child) that wasn’t even on its territory. I can honestly say that I’ve never seen life-threatening injuries from the more common household breeds (although I’m aware of a child being killed by the dad’s K-9/GSD partner)..

    Finally, people who post stuff about trusting their dog implicitly around their children, or how sure they are of their dog’s loyalty to their child are kidding themselves. They are kidding themselves and putting both their dog and child at risk. They are putting too much faith in the dog, their child’s behavior, and their own parenting abilities. Grow up, stop thinking that your dog and child are special, and be a better dog owner and parent.
    Your observations mirror mine as well and without getting off in the weeds like some have, I will simply say that I don't really give a rat's ass which dogs are likely to bite most often, I'm concerned with those that have a history of causing the most physical harm. The breeds that are most likely and most frequently to be involved in serious injury or death really isn't open to much intelligent debate.

    Lastly, any notions that some might have about preventing the act of biting by simply being in proximity to your dog are optimistic at best. The overwhelming majority of "friendly fire" bites that I'm personally aware of occurred in the presence of the dog's owner which means you'll most likely be an after-the-fact witness that might be able to mitigate the extent of the injuries ...... might being the key word. It only takes one bite (in a split second) to maim a child and the whole idea of being quick enough to prevent such a thing counters everything I know about critical thinking.
    The path of least resistance will seldom get you where you need to be.

  6. #116
    Site Supporter Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    A demographic representing 13% of the American population commits about 80% of the violent crime in America, and 55% of homicides in particular.

    This isn't because of their breed skin color, it's because of the problems facing that demographic within their socio-economic class; namely, broken households and a prevalent lack of positive male father figures.

    IMO, the same thing applies to dogs. What are the primary demographics that owns pitbulls? What is the prevalence of criminality in those demographics? Is it reasonable to hypothesize that the same factors among a household which lead to a life of crime among their children also leads to violent dogs? Does it surprise that large dogs with high drive and strong bite strength account for what deaths do occur, as opposed to cowardly dogs like labs and golden retrievers which will literally let themselves be killed without even putting up a fight?

    I don't have any particular love to pitbulls and grew up in an area where I put down stray dogs and stray cats on our own as a matter of routine practice, as their presence threatened the safety of the dogs that we kenneled as part of my grandfather's bird dog training business. I write this just to point out that even I am reading your posts in the same way that @HCM interpreted it with an axe to grind, and I'm not one of those bleeding-heart dog owners that owns a pitbull as some sort of social justice virtue signaling.
    We generally don’t control the matting behavior of humans to achieve desired behavior and physical traits like we do for dogs. Well, some societies did, but that’s another conversation. After all, there is a reason that it’s called breeding.

    Keep in mind there is often a description of the desired trait in the breed’s name. For example, there is the Labrador Retriever that is bred for retrieving fowl. There is the German Shepherd that was bred for protecting the herd. Hopefully I do not need to remind anyone why the breed in question is called the pit bull, or how this breeding purpose might have some unintended consequences when it comes to human interaction.
    I like my rifles like my women - short, light, fast, brown, and suppressed.

  7. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    Respectfully, if you're continuing to post anecdotes and appeals to emotion, and reference their own site for it's veracity -Might as well reference Everytown for gun safety's website for honest data on so-called 'gun violence'- then clearly we are talking past each other.
    There's tons of doctors that are vehemently anti-gun, and carry on with specifics on terrible gunshot wounds suffered by kids and innocent folks, and how terrible those so-called 'high powered' AR15's are and how nobody should have one, etc. That's not a strike against their knowledge and skill as a physician, it's a natural human response to someone who's never seen or understood the net positive of an armed populace. They blame guns and the companies that make them instead of the people that store them negligently around kids or strangers, leave them in their car to be stolen, or pick them up with evil in their hearts.
    It's very much a 'can't see the forest through the trees' scenario.

    This really isn't all that different, especially once we accept that if pit bulls were all summarily and ex-judicially executed overnight, the career criminal shitbird assholes that like tough aggressive evil dogs will start breeding and abusing another breed to make their tough evil aggressive dogs.

    What I will not do is play tit-for-tat statistical cherrypicking & mud-flinging in a pointless attempt to change your mind. Frankly, I doubt there's anything I could conjure up from any source that you would accept as compelling, accurate, or relevant. So I'm not going to waste any more time trying to change your mind, which is clearly closed and solidly decided on a stance here.

    I'll bow out of this thread now.
    Very Well put.

  8. #118
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    People do get pretty defensive regarding criticism about their kids, religious beliefs, dogs, and sports teams- and not necessarily in that order.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI

  9. #119
    Site Supporter Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    Respectfully, if you're continuing to post anecdotes and appeals to emotion, and reference their own site for it's veracity -Might as well reference Everytown for gun safety's website for honest data on so-called 'gun violence'- then clearly we are talking past each other.
    There's tons of doctors that are vehemently anti-gun, and carry on with specifics on terrible gunshot wounds suffered by kids and innocent folks, and how terrible those so-called 'high powered' AR15's are and how nobody should have one, etc. That's not a strike against their knowledge and skill as a physician, it's a natural human response to someone who's never seen or understood the net positive of an armed populace. They blame guns and the companies that make them instead of the people that store them negligently around kids or strangers, leave them in their car to be stolen, or pick them up with evil in their hearts.
    It's very much a 'can't see the forest through the trees' scenario.

    This really isn't all that different, especially once we accept that if pit bulls were all summarily and ex-judicially executed overnight, the career criminal shitbird assholes that like tough aggressive evil dogs will start breeding and abusing another breed to make their tough evil aggressive dogs.

    What I will not do is play tit-for-tat statistical cherrypicking & mud-flinging in a pointless attempt to change your mind. Frankly, I doubt there's anything I could conjure up from any source that you would accept as compelling, accurate, or relevant. So I'm not going to waste any more time trying to change your mind, which is clearly closed and solidly decided on a stance here.

    I'll bow out of this thread now.
    A gun is an inanimate object without drive or instinct. On the other hand, pits have been careful bred to have a particular drive and instinct. A gun isn’t capable of acting without human action; dogs are.

    You also appear to assume that all or a majority of significant pit bull attacks are precipitated by owners who abuse the dog or mistreat it. That is a big assumption that I don’t buy.
    I like my rifles like my women - short, light, fast, brown, and suppressed.

  10. #120
    Site Supporter 41magfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    You also appear to assume that all or a majority of significant pit bull attacks are precipitated by owners who abuse the dog or mistreat it. That is a big assumption that I don’t buy.
    Me neither.

    Most of the dog owners I encounter (99+%) have no real control over their dog(s) off-lead because the dog is essentially untrained and undisciplined. When you couple that passive control with an aggressive, strong-willed breed, you have the makings of a disaster when you add a dose of unpredictable stimulus into the mix.

    I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "My dog's never behaved like that before."
    The path of least resistance will seldom get you where you need to be.

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