Dogs killing people

[UNM1136]

I bowed out of this thread early because I realized that my experiences were mine, and thus clear and convincing to me. I didn't think I was gonna persuade anyone who had formed an opinion...

But after briefly dipping back in to read the posts of people I respect I have decided to add this:

The almost all best dogs I have ever known absolutely LIVE to chew on people. They see it as a game with a chew toy at the end until they get a few street bites. I can think of a couple GSDs, a couple of Dutchies, and a couple of Mals. Including the one that has played with my kids the last 7.5 years, currently laying at my feet chewing rawhide. I know what collar wise is, and it is something I took precautions to avoid suggested by several "name" trainers, but he is smart enough that he was able to piece it together...

The E-collar turns suggestions like "go lay down" into commands (DOWN!) The tracking harness tells him "let's go find someone to fuck up". The agitation collar (he was choking himself when using the harness for bitework; a correct agitation collar fixed it. I am still shaking my head at that) tells him "oh, goody, I get to fuck someone up". Fur saver or prong collar on a leash suggests to him "aww,hell, I better do good or I might not get to fuck someone up..." My dog frequently wears several collars at a time, depending on what we are doing. The most frequent are the E'collar, the prong collar, amd the fur saver in that order. Oh, and he always has a flat collar with the sole purpose of carrying ID/Vax tags.

Dogs see things pretty black and white, with the oft quoted intelligence level of a 2-5 year old child. My dog, despite escaping the yard several times has NEVER bit someone I didn't want him to. But he is a dog, and I have to be vigilant as though I had a gun that could walk around and do things of its own volition....and do everything I can to control its limited decision making abilities.

pat

[Mercworx]

We are adding a Central Asian Shepherd male to join our female Caucasian Shepherd now that we have the space. Couldn’t find reputable breeding stock to source a CO male at the moment.

This most recent story is what made the wife tell me to go for it. Said she’s never felt safer than with our CO in the backyard with them or out on walks etc. We have a neighbor down the road who told me his dog absolutely refuses to come near our house when our girl is out. He’s a friendly labradoodle and we like our neighbor but I don’t mind the deterrence.

[Coyotesfan97]

I bowed out of this thread early because I realized that my experiences were mine, and thus clear and convincing to me. I didn't think I was gonna persuade anyone who had formed an opinion...

But after briefly dipping back in to read the posts of people I respect I have decided to add this:

The almost all best dogs I have ever known absolutely LIVE to chew on people. They see it as a game with a chew toy at the end until they get a few street bites. I can think of a couple GSDs, a couple of Dutchies, and a couple of Mals. Including the one that has played with my kids the last 7.5 years, currently laying at my feet chewing rawhide. I know what collar wise is, and it is something I took precautions to avoid suggested by several "name" trainers, but he is smart enough that he was able to piece it together...

The E-collar turns suggestions like "go lay down" into commands (DOWN!) The tracking harness tells him "let's go find someone to fuck up". The agitation collar (he was choking himself when using the harness for bitework; a correct agitation collar fixed it. I am still shaking my head at that) tells him "oh, goody, I get to fuck someone up". Fur saver or prong collar on a leash suggests to him "aww,hell, I better do good or I might not get to fuck someone up..." My dog frequently wears several collars at a time, depending on what we are doing. The most frequent are the E'collar, the prong collar, amd the fur saver in that order. Oh, and he always has a flat collar with the sole purpose of carrying ID/Vax tags.

Dogs see things pretty black and white, with the oft quoted intelligence level of a 2-5 year old child. My dog, despite escaping the yard several times has NEVER bit someone I didn't want him to. But he is a dog, and I have to be vigilant as though I had a gun that could walk around and do things of its own volition....and do everything I can to control its limited decision making abilities.

pat

I’ve seen some pretty horrific bites in my old line of work. Generally the people who got messed up the most were the most combative. But K9s bite and hold onto one place. They injury comes from the flesh tearing through the clamped bite.

Generally if you don’t fight the bite and the dog gets taken off you have punctures. What scares me about packs of dogs is they don’t bite once they typewrite and bite you all over result in multiple bites and a lot of trauma.

I’ve always heard dogs will get “smart” about E-collars from trainers. I’ve always thought yeah isn’t that kind of the point about using them? But they don’t get smart about prongs etc? My dogs got the e-collar put on when they jumped in the car. They wore it until we got home that night well morning really. They always has a fur saver on and I usually kept them in a harness once I put it on for a search. Oh and I had a leather agitation collar as a cue for dope work.

Once the dogs figured out the game I think the cues become habits. Just like once the dog figures out we are searching for real people that he can bite the light flips on and you have an experienced street dog.

I know I’ve said it before but Malinois and Dutch Shepherds are some of the smartest dogs around. Like Pat I told people they have the intelligence of a five year coupled with the impulse control of a toddler. That’s why Dad decides who gets bitten and not the dog.

[Catshooter]

But he is a dog, and I have to be vigilant as though I had a gun that could walk around and do things of its own volition....and do everything I can to control its limited decision making abilities.

pat

That's called being responsible for the tools one is using. Thank you for that.

Both of my run ins with dogs the owners were present and fully aware of what was happening and made zero move to change any outcomes, right up until I put my hand on the butt of my .45. Not quite so responsible.

[TCinVA]

3 Pitbulls from a house known for dog complaints kill 80 year old man, critically wound his wife. Firefighters had to fight them off to attend to the victims:



https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...atta-rcna72290

There is video and it is horrific.

Working breed dogs are capable of causing serious injuries. They are capable of killing.

My parents have a dog named Joey. He's a six pound Yorkshire Terrier with no teeth. He's still kept on a leash when he's outside. The person holding that leash is strong enough to use it to enforce discipline should it ever be necessary...not that it ever has been.

I don't claim to be the world's greatest dog expert, but I've trained a few and they minded. I have seen very few people who have any concept of how to actually control a small dog that is incapable of harming an infant, much less manage a working breed with the capacity for real violence.

There seems to be this urge in society to deny the nature of a lot of these dogs. They have literally been bred over long periods of time to have certain characteristics that can be useful if you are using them to hunt bears or guard against wolves. These characteristics are one of the reasons why people buy the cursed things in the first fucking place...and then they turn around and act like dogs are blank slates with no inherent personality or proclivities that can be a problem. You cannot buy a working breed because "It will be a good guard dog!" (Translation: it can chew on people) and then act like it's the same fucking thing as a toothless yorkie you can literally punt into the next county.

Having a working breed requires understanding the nature of the breed, the tendencies of the specific dog, and a whole lot of investment in training and enforcement by the owner. Every year at least a couple of K9 officers in the US have to shoot their own dog because it flips the fuck out and attacks somebody. They're not "sweet babies!", they're a fucking animal and no human being on this planet is required to be a chew toy for your fucking dog.

My mother was recently walking Joey when a pit-mixed mutt and a retriever mixed mutt unsupervised in their yard, came at her to attack. Thankfully she had taken my advice and started carrying OC spray which she deployed the way I trained her to and it short circuited the attack. She almost had to use the OC spray on the owner of the mutts who came out into the street to have a problem with her about spraying their fucking loose mongrels.

If I believe your dog is about to harm me or someone I care about, I will kill your fucking dog.

If I see your dog literally eating an 81 year old man, I will kill your fucking dog.

I have a couple of clients who have aggressive pit bulls at home to be good guard dogs who told me that they'd use lethal force on people to protect their dogs. I explained to them that dogs are legally property and at no point does the law give them permission to kill people to save their dogs. And further, that while they think the idea of a dog that will maul a trespasser is a good idea that's really no different than shooting someone who is trespassing and the moral and legal ramifications of having two out of control mutts who will attack upon even slightest provocation is catastrophically stupid given the tendency of such animals to get loose and attack people.

You can't tell me your pit bull broke the glass in a door trying to get at an Amazon driver one minute and then tell me it's no big deal that you have these vicious fucking things the next.

They didn't like my explanation of reality. But it's reality.

"I don't care how much you love your dogs. No person in this state is required to be a chew toy because of your feelings toward your dogs. If someone is breaking into your house with full intent to rape and murder you and your dogs maul them to death, that's fine. But just like the firearm, if you face literally any other scenario that doesn't justify the use of lethal force it's the wrong tool. What you're telling me is you have two killing machines with their own will and impulses and your grand plan to managed them is you just keep them locked in a room when you think people might be around so they don't attack them. That is not a home security plan, that is a disaster waiting to happen and you should fix it immediately. If your dogs start mauling someone who has not forcibly broken into your home and they take useful action to protect themselves from your dogs, you have no legal cause to use lethal force against that person even if they are killing your dog. If you do, you will go to prison and probably for a very, very long time. And you should."

"My sweet baby!"

Yeah. It's not. It's a fucking animal. And I'll happily refer anyone who makes the "Not my dog!" argument to my buddy Ashton so he can explain to them what happens when your dog has a brain issue nobody knows about, has a seizure and flips its fucking wig and tries to eat members of your family.

I don't have a problem with people owning working breed dogs if they are actually responsible owners.

Responsible owners of working breed dogs are a distinctly tiny minority of owners, in my experience.

[TCinVA]

https://www.wate.com/news/nexstar-me...k-family-says/

I looked at the social media of the couple in that story when it happened. Lots of pictures of their "sweet" pit bulls.

Denying the nature of the animal didn't do their two small children any favors.

[fixer]

Yeah. It's not. It's a fucking animal. And I'll happily refer anyone who makes the "Not my dog!" argument to my buddy Ashton so he can explain to them what happens when your dog has a brain issue nobody knows about, has a seizure and flips its fucking wig and tries to eat members of your family.

Great post.

I put my labrador down because it was having seizures. Not having a 70 lb ticking time bomb around me, my wife, or then 5 year old boy.

[Mercworx]

Great post.

I put my labrador down because it was having seizures. Not having a 70 lb ticking time bomb around me, my wife, or then 5 year old boy.

This is why I’m such a big believer in going to reputable breeders. Also had a friend with a Rottweiler that had neurological issues. Watching that dog decline was pretty heartbreaking. For a time my wife wanted to adopt or would send links to backyard breeder types. While any dog can have issues going to a reputable breeder is a great way to mitigate some of that.

[fixer]

Recent San Antonio incident reminded me of this one from a year ago in Coppell:

https://nypost.com/2022/03/16/colleg...eals-her-face/

[UNM1136]

There is video and it is horrific.

Working breed dogs are capable of causing serious injuries. They are capable of killing.

My parents have a dog named Joey. He's a six pound Yorkshire Terrier with no teeth. He's still kept on a leash when he's outside. The person holding that leash is strong enough to use it to enforce discipline should it ever be necessary...not that it ever has been.

I don't claim to be the world's greatest dog expert, but I've trained a few and they minded. I have seen very few people who have any concept of how to actually control a small dog that is incapable of harming an infant, much less manage a working breed with the capacity for real violence.

There seems to be this urge in society to deny the nature of a lot of these dogs. They have literally been bred over long periods of time to have certain characteristics that can be useful if you are using them to hunt bears or guard against wolves. These characteristics are one of the reasons why people buy the cursed things in the first fucking place...and then they turn around and act like dogs are blank slates with no inherent personality or proclivities that can be a problem. You cannot buy a working breed because "It will be a good guard dog!" (Translation: it can chew on people) and then act like it's the same fucking thing as a toothless yorkie you can literally punt into the next county.

Having a working breed requires understanding the nature of the breed, the tendencies of the specific dog, and a whole lot of investment in training and enforcement by the owner. Every year at least a couple of K9 officers in the US have to shoot their own dog because it flips the fuck out and attacks somebody. They're not "sweet babies!", they're a fucking animal and no human being on this planet is required to be a chew toy for your fucking dog.

My mother was recently walking Joey when a pit-mixed mutt and a retriever mixed mutt unsupervised in their yard, came at her to attack. Thankfully she had taken my advice and started carrying OC spray which she deployed the way I trained her to and it short circuited the attack. She almost had to use the OC spray on the owner of the mutts who came out into the street to have a problem with her about spraying their fucking loose mongrels.

If I believe your dog is about to harm me or someone I care about, I will kill your fucking dog.

If I see your dog literally eating an 81 year old man, I will kill your fucking dog.

I have a couple of clients who have aggressive pit bulls at home to be good guard dogs who told me that they'd use lethal force on people to protect their dogs. I explained to them that dogs are legally property and at no point does the law give them permission to kill people to save their dogs. And further, that while they think the idea of a dog that will maul a trespasser is a good idea that's really no different than shooting someone who is trespassing and the moral and legal ramifications of having two out of control mutts who will attack upon even slightest provocation is catastrophically stupid given the tendency of such animals to get loose and attack people.

You can't tell me your pit bull broke the glass in a door trying to get at an Amazon driver one minute and then tell me it's no big deal that you have these vicious fucking things the next.

They didn't like my explanation of reality. But it's reality.

"I don't care how much you love your dogs. No person in this state is required to be a chew toy because of your feelings toward your dogs. If someone is breaking into your house with full intent to rape and murder you and your dogs maul them to death, that's fine. But just like the firearm, if you face literally any other scenario that doesn't justify the use of lethal force it's the wrong tool. What you're telling me is you have two killing machines with their own will and impulses and your grand plan to managed them is you just keep them locked in a room when you think people might be around so they don't attack them. That is not a home security plan, that is a disaster waiting to happen and you should fix it immediately. If your dogs start mauling someone who has not forcibly broken into your home and they take useful action to protect themselves from your dogs, you have no legal cause to use lethal force against that person even if they are killing your dog. If you do, you will go to prison and probably for a very, very long time. And you should."

"My sweet baby!"

Yeah. It's not. It's a fucking animal. And I'll happily refer anyone who makes the "Not my dog!" argument to my buddy Ashton so he can explain to them what happens when your dog has a brain issue nobody knows about, has a seizure and flips its fucking wig and tries to eat members of your family.

I don't have a problem with people owning working breed dogs if they are actually responsible owners.

Responsible owners of working breed dogs are a distinctly tiny minority of owners, in my experience.

I really can't argue with you. Many of your points are my points. My Mal has been with me since he was 9 weeks old, and by then I had already been working with him/selecting him for 6 weeks. Yes, before his eyes opened. While I don't trust him implicitly, I rely on him. I have trained him. In public I control him. I do my best to supervise him.

Most dog owners believe their dogs are "trained" when they will sit or down on command about half the time. When they don't, it is cute, and certainly not their fault. When I train dogs they wear fursavers, prongs and e-collars, at the minimum. I will have multiple ways to enforce my commands. When my dog does bite work he has the E-Collar, the Agitation collar, and the prong with a jerk tab. And probably a fur saver and flat collar as well.

At some point my dog is going to find something sooo interesting he flips me the bird when I tell him to do something, A roadkill rabbit was the first one...I want layer upon layer of control. Your dog is either under your control, or it is not. While I want 100% compliance. I will accept 90% knowing that the 10% disobedience will happen at home, or in training...And willing to accept responsibility if the disobedience happens in public, and someone gets hurt. And I will kill my dog myself if he tries to kill someone in my presence without my authorization.

Most people deny their dogs' capabilities, in both directions: "oh, my dog is a sweetheart and would never do that" or "my dog will protect me if I am in danger"...most people are deluding themselves about what their dog will or will not do, simply because they have never trained their dogs to a level of reliability, and are thinking wishfully. In both directions...

I certainly cannot think that people walking their dogs in harnesses or haltis have any real control over their dogs, as a general rule, especially if e-collars and prongs are considered inhumane. If they have a soft dog, yeah, maybe, but I would not wager anything. Otherwise, at some point they will be embarrassed when their dog finds something literally irresistible.

It is only fair that a dog knows what a correction is so it can appropriately respond when corrected. I have read chapters on collar training where a dog unfamiliar with a correction recieves one, and begins Superstitious Association, where the dog figures the correction came from an inanimate object that he was sniffing...or walking past. I am very, very careful in correcting my Mal, who is mildly dog aggressive, when he gets fascinated with another dog. A poorly executed correction could lead him to assume that somehow the other dog somehow hurt him. I want him to have no doubt the ouchie came from me, and not the other dog. I tried to correct my kid's last dog, a chihuahua cross, all of 18 pounds of her, in a similar dog checking dog out situation....A poorly timed correction led her to think the big dog hurt her. So she attacked. And ended up bit through and hanging by her tongue until the other dog let go....my kid's dog vet thanked me for having her on a prong collar when I brought her to the office because I cared enough about my (cute little baby) dog to keep her under control.

pat