ATF crushes another family gun dealer

[jh9]

The "tHeYrE bUiLdInG A REGISTRY" argument is beyond tired. So they got 46 year old forms and... hang on isn't the dealer supposed to destroy them after 20 if they're still in business? So they got a list of 20 year old buys, every single one of which means jack shit since Florida doesn't have state-level registration. So they got a list of guns that the moment The Man (tm) tries to Come And Take Them they find out all of them have been "lost in a boating accident", sold or stolen.

It's the shittiest argument that just won't die. 4473s can't be used to build an actionable registry, and there are cheaper and more accurate ways to generate a "list of gun owners".

Story would be less suspect if the ttag piece hadn't included a bunch of outright incorrect information. But accurate or not, the embellishments made the story more provocative and they got their clicks. Which is all that really mattered in the first place.

[JRB]

So long as the ATF basically ignores straw purchases and fails to prosecute them even when the evidence is handed to them by an FFL... It makes the 'This FFL couldn't account for (X number) of guns! They're criminals!' seem like an incredibly weak reason for ruining their livelihood.

If the ATF wants to play that 'every gun matters' game they better start going 100% on straw purchases. They should be really happy to work those problems with FFL's that give a shit about such things, which, big surprise, is most of them.
Otherwise it genuinely seems they're using whatever means they can to attack the culture and lifestyle via destroying the businesses that support it.


That's not to say that genuinely nefarious assholes like that SOT @HCM talked about don't deserve the whole book getting thrown at them. I think we can all agree that filing false form 4's and selling NFA items to cartel assholes, yeah, I think everyone can agree that SOT had it coming. But unless it's something like an FFL deliberately breaking the law to supply guns or NFA items to prohibited persons, I think the ATF needs to focus on that 'probationary' period and helping them get their books straight.

[HCM]

So long as the ATF basically ignores straw purchases and fails to prosecute them even when the evidence is handed to them by an FFL... It makes the 'This FFL couldn't account for (X number) of guns! They're criminals!' seem like an incredibly weak reason for ruining their livelihood.

If the ATF wants to play that 'every gun matters' game they better start going 100% on straw purchases. They should be really happy to work those problems with FFL's that give a shit about such things, which, big surprise, is most of them.
Otherwise it genuinely seems they're using whatever means they can to attack the culture and lifestyle via destroying the businesses that support it.


That's not to say that genuinely nefarious assholes like that SOT @HCM talked about don't deserve the whole book getting thrown at them. I think we can all agree that filing false form 4's and selling NFA items to cartel assholes, yeah, I think everyone can agree that SOT had it coming. But unless it's something like an FFL deliberately breaking the law to supply guns or NFA items to prohibited persons, I think the ATF needs to focus on that 'probationary' period and helping them get their books straight.

I hate to break this to you but ATF doesn’t “ignore” straw purchasers. Nor does ATF or other federal LE agencies decide what gets prosecuted. The U.S. Attorney’s Office does.

Neither ATF or the USAO have the resources to prosecute every straw purchase and even if they did the federal courts don’t have the resources to handle that volume.

The resources they do have are prioritized. That doesn’t means straw purchasers reported by FFL’s are ignored or that the FFLs cooperation is not taken into account.

Would we want an ATF or federal government that had the resources to do zero defect enforcement?

That’s without the complications of proving the necessary intent required for straw purchase or “Lie and Try” cases.

Re: the administration side, not all errors are equal. Paperwork errors are one thing multiple unaccounted guns are another. The latter might be an error or it might be a sign of something else, like an employee stealing guns or other diversions.

If Sgt. JRB comes up short multiple guns in the company armory how is that gonna go over? I’m gonna guess it would go as bad or likely worse than if I came up missing guns at work.

Every FFL is going to have issues, how they handle / respond to those issues plays a part in whether or not admin action results..

The multi generation FFL I also mentioned is lucky they have not (yet) lost their FFL. The current owner (grandson) knew EXACTLY what he was doing re: straw purchases, inducing people to lie on 4473’s, not responding to trace requests regarding guns recovered in crimes etc. Several long time employees of the shop who had worked for them for decades left because they did not want to be associated with what the grandson was doing. Unfortunately in that case a previously good family produced a shady scumbag. My impression is the only reason their FFL was not already revoked was the prior positive history with the family/shop prior to the current owner.

[HCM]

The "tHeYrE bUiLdInG A REGISTRY" argument is beyond tired. So they got 46 year old forms and... hang on isn't the dealer supposed to destroy them after 20 if they're still in business? So they got a list of 20 year old buys, every single one of which means jack shit since Florida doesn't have state-level registration. So they got a list of guns that the moment The Man (tm) tries to Come And Take Them they find out all of them have been "lost in a boating accident", sold or stolen.

It's the shittiest argument that just won't die. 4473s can't be used to build an actionable registry, and there are cheaper and more accurate ways to generate a "list of gun owners".

Story would be less suspect if the ttag piece hadn't included a bunch of outright incorrect information. But accurate or not, the embellishments made the story more provocative and they got their clicks. Which is all that really mattered in the first place.

Yes. “Building a registry” has a specific legal meaning. It means firearms records like 4473s can’t be organized into a searchable database, what is formally known as a “system of records.” It doesn’t mean ATF can’t warehouse those records or search them manually.

A system of records is a group of records under the control of an agency “from which information is retrieved by the name of the individual or by some identifying number, symbol, or other id”

There is a specific legal process required by the Privacy Act which federal agencies have to follow to create a system of records.

https://www.fpc.gov/elements-of-fede...ecord-notices/

https://www.gsa.gov/reference/gsa-pr...ds-privacy-act

[Lester Polfus]

The "tHeYrE bUiLdInG A REGISTRY" argument is beyond tired. So they got 46 year old forms and... hang on isn't the dealer supposed to destroy them after 20 if they're still in business? So they got a list of 20 year old buys, every single one of which means jack shit since Florida doesn't have state-level registration. So they got a list of guns that the moment The Man (tm) tries to Come And Take Them they find out all of them have been "lost in a boating accident", sold or stolen.

It's the shittiest argument that just won't die. 4473s can't be used to build an actionable registry, and there are cheaper and more accurate ways to generate a "list of gun owners".

Story would be less suspect if the ttag piece hadn't included a bunch of outright incorrect information. But accurate or not, the embellishments made the story more provocative and they got their clicks. Which is all that really mattered in the first place.

What I find hilarious is the number of people who think as long as ATF doesn't have "a registry" they are owning guns anonymously.

If you've ever:

1) joined, looked at or posted on a gun forum.
2) bought gun stuff online
3) bought gun stuff with a credit card

You're pretty much in the "suspected gun owner" camp if somebody wanted to make hay out of that.

A look inside my purchase history at places like MidwayUSA and a handful of other retailers would give you a pretty solid idea of the types of guns I own.

But hey, people can keep buying 80% lowers and stuff online with a credit card because they don't want The Man to know. No skin off my nose.

[MickAK]

What I find hilarious is the number of people who think as long as ATF doesn't have "a registry" they are owning guns anonymously.

If you've ever:

1) joined, looked at or posted on a gun forum.
2) bought gun stuff online
3) bought gun stuff with a credit card

You're pretty much in the "suspected gun owner" camp if somebody wanted to make hay out of that.

A look inside my purchase history at places like MidwayUSA and a handful of other retailers would give you a pretty solid idea of the types of guns I own.

But hey, people can keep buying 80% lowers and stuff online with a credit card because they don't want The Man to know. No skin off my nose.

This. Privacy these days is a full time commitment. Overtime really. And even then you're creating a void where there shouldn't be one which is the same as fluorescent paint and strobe lights.

[DDTSGM]

Attachment 92908

source : https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ers-in-the-us/

I could say a lot about their long game of implementing gun-owner control by creating supply choke points. But I think Rachel Maddow summed it up pretty well in one sentence:

Eff... they are trying to ban books in addition to guns....




Seriously, while something nefarious may be going on with the current administration, I don't really believe that is the reason for the ebb of FFL holders.

I think that there are several things that have impacted the number of FFL's during the period you listed, several of the same things impacted the bookstores which I jokingly posted about.

First, the rise of the Big Box stores - think how Gander Mountain, Cabelas, Bass Pro, Academy Sports, WalMart, etc. impacted many non-specialized FFL's simply because they had larger economies of scale.

Second, the rise of the internet. You can order firearms, firearms associated items such as gun cases, cleaning equipment, holsters, ammunition, reloading supplies, etc., cheaper than you could probably get them at the LGS, plus you have a wider variety of goods available online. It isn't likely that a gun store could stay in business by doing nothing but transfers.

As I said, I think there have been other forces at work over the last three decades, other than a continuing government plot to run FFLs out of business.

[LittleLebowski]

What I find hilarious is the number of people who think as long as ATF doesn't have "a registry" they are owning guns anonymously.

If you've ever:

1) joined, looked at or posted on a gun forum.
2) bought gun stuff online
3) bought gun stuff with a credit card

You're pretty much in the "suspected gun owner" camp if somebody wanted to make hay out of that.

A look inside my purchase history at places like MidwayUSA and a handful of other retailers would give you a pretty solid idea of the types of guns I own.

But hey, people can keep buying 80% lowers and stuff online with a credit card because they don't want The Man to know. No skin off my nose.

#TipOfTheIceberg

[4RNR]

What I find hilarious is the number of people who think as long as ATF doesn't have "a registry" they are owning guns anonymously.

If you've ever:

1) joined, looked at or posted on a gun forum.
2) bought gun stuff online
3) bought gun stuff with a credit card

You're pretty much in the "suspected gun owner" camp if somebody wanted to make hay out of that.

A look inside my purchase history at places like MidwayUSA and a handful of other retailers would give you a pretty solid idea of the types of guns I own.

But hey, people can keep buying 80% lowers and stuff online with a credit card because they don't want The Man to know. No skin off my nose.

I don't think I own anything anonymously but I'm not born American and automatically assume the gov knows. That being said stop treating credit cards like ree money and buy what you need the first time and there'll be less of this BS

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

[Caballoflaco]

I don't think I own anything anonymously but I'm not born American and automatically assume the gov knows. That being said stop treating credit cards like ree money and buy what you need the first time and there'll be less of this BS

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

So you don’t take your cell phone or you turn it off and put it in a faraday cage when you go to the shooting range or gun store..