I'm gonna make my own Stack-A-Toe, but better...with blackjack. And hookers.

[TCinVA]

I still “love” my Staccatos and my M&Ps are tools. It doesn’t mean that I can’t see that Apex has channeled Harry Potter when it comes to making M&P barrels.

I'll put it in guitar terms: Joe Bonamassa has a fetish for vintage guitars. He spends rude amounts of money collecting very rare and special guitars that sound amazing. He stopped touring with a number of them because the risk of destroying sometimes one of a kind instruments is too great when the guitar goes on tour. But he has other guitars that he thrashes the living shit out of on stage.

Or cars: There are cars you might want because they are beautiful or rare or special in some way that you drive on a nice spring day to get ice cream with the wife/girlfriend. Then there are cars that exist as essentially weapons intended for speed that you run until the brakes are on fire. (I did that to an X6M one time on a track, much to the chagrin of the BMW people)

It be kind of like that.

My M&P does not evoke that loving feeling the way a 1911 does (Neither does the Toe, at least not for me) but what it does do is show itself to be an exceptionally good instrument when actually used. Nobody looking at it has any idea what it is capable of.

The reason some of those guitars that Joe Bonamassa collects are so valuable is because of the people who played them. Some of them started out bang-on identical to dozens, hundreds, or thousands of other guitars that look exactly the same but there were subtle modifications and wear that came along with being the preferred instrument of a skilled player. With a lot of them the preference came because it fit how they wanted to use it better than other guitars.

This is as close as I've been able to get to everything I really want in a pistol. It's not quite perfect, but it's closer than anything else on the market.

[mmc45414]

Well...that'll pay for half an Apex barrel. Good deal!

I think the whole M&P product is just a huge bargain, no matter how you approach it, with the rebate now you can probably snag a pistol for ~$340.

But they will always live in the shadow of the other brands. I guess that is OK with me, I will just be over here grabbing up a few more pistols for what a handful of spare magazines would cost. I am getting curious about a compensated gun, and with Illinois (somewhere I drive through) just becoming a ban state I am tempted to get this one, since I already have a pile of 17 round magazines.

And the mechanism is straight forward, something mortals with no armorer training can maintain and upgrade just by watching a YT video or two. Even the frame rails are easily and inexpensively renewed, not sure how you would ever wear one out.

Is the Apex barrel an enhancement or a fix? The answer is probably both, but I don't care.

I think one big error they made was slow rolling on the 4"/15rnd 2.0 Compacts. There are many reasons Glocks are popular (just as there are many thing I personally do not like about them) but that G-19 form factor is just like Goldilocks's bowl of porridge, I think Glock gained a lotta momentum because the G-19 is such a perfect size. Now a M&P that is the same size is my primary carry gun, and brings me all of the advantages of an M&P.

I always wanted the Staccato, and they sure seem tasty, but after handling and shooting one I cooled off on that idea. Maybe if my fingers were longer (they are kinda short...) I would still be horny for one, but I just want a pistol grip frame to be longer than it is wider, like a 1911. Like an M&P.

ETA:

This is as close as I've been able to get to everything I really want in a pistol. It's not quite perfect, but it's closer than anything else on the market.

And this is how it sorta evolved for me, I had a safe full of stuff but every Sunday I was grabbing an M&P. One day I had an epiphany, now I have a safe (and holster) full of M&Ps. Well, maybe it wasn't an epiphany, I probably wanted something expensive so I sold off the other pistols.

[Archer1440]

Direct-milling from the factory is vastly superior to screwing around with plate mounting, especially as most of the failures that happen during use are related to mounting moreso than the optics themselves. That's why I wanted that as a feature.

I expect it to become more of a requirement for institutional purchases going forward.

Sure, all else being equal, simpler is usually better. Especially when we are discussing a robust system like the ACRO.

However, there is arguably a downside to a single proprietary slide cut, particularly on a more expensive mass production product, like a Staccatto. That problem is optic ecosystem lock-in. A well designed plate to slide interface solves much of the downside of plate systems.

Better plate system designs with correct material selection and RTZ capabilities (like HK uses on VP series optics ready slides, or Nighthawk’s IOS system) might arguably be a better overall solution for the majority of users, especially given the fact that optics are evolving at a much faster rate than pistols, generally speaking.

You might, for example, be as happy with your ACROs as I am- but you might also want the ability to throw on an SRO for some applications as well. Choices are good, especially if you get actual RTZ fitment.

[mmc45414]

However, there is arguably a downside to a single proprietary slide cut, particularly on a more expensive mass production product, like a Staccatto. That problem is optic ecosystem lock-in.

Yeah, I agree, I happily had a $500 M&P direct milled for my SRO (admittedly, a very common footprint), not sure I would have the stones to do that to a $2500 pistol. Actually I am sure, I would absolutely NOT do that to a $2500 pistol. But if the pistol is so expensive that it needs to be completely future proof, is that a feature or a bug?

[TCinVA]

However, there is arguably a downside to a single proprietary slide cut, particularly on a more expensive mass production product, like a Staccatto. That problem is optic ecosystem lock-in. A well designed plate to slide interface solves much of the downside of plate systems.

It's true that you're locked in with a direct mill...but direct milling for an Acro style mounting setup is vastly superior to the screw-it-down-into-the-slide options on the market in terms of simplicity and robustness under especially duty use. That style of mounting is only going to become more prevalent on defense oriented pistols because it's a lot more idiot and oopsie proof than the RMR style of mounting.

In the near future you can expect factory direct mill offerings to expand, especially for the Acro as it's currently being adopted by a number of federal agencies. It's going to become the default answer.

Throwing different optics on the gun sounds really nice, but the mount problems it brings along aren't worth the increased flexibility. As I mentioned earlier, when I see failures it's more often with the mount than the optic itself. Even with very good plates shit happens and people people and it manifests at the most inopportune moments.

Where we are headed is optic mounting on the pistol being no more complicated than mounting a dot on top of an AR. And that's a good thing for the vast majority of people.

[maximus83]

Seems like a core requirement in the "Stack-A-Toe" concept is being able to score a gunsmith-fit Apex barrel. These have been consistently hard to get hold of for folks without industry connections, I checked a few times over the last year including now, every time I checked the site or called, no indication on when they'd have more.

How will M&P owners build a Stack-A-Toe if they can't get an Apex barrel?

[revchuck38]

How will M&P owners build a Stack-A-Toe if they can't get an Apex barrel?

Easy, just get one chambered in .45 ACP.

Okay, that was a non-serious answer since most folks think "9x19" in this context. But M&P45s (and G21s) seem to be more consistently accurate in factory form than their 9x19 brethren.

[TCinVA]

Seems like a core requirement in the "Stack-A-Toe" concept is being able to score a gunsmith-fit Apex barrel.

It's only a requirement if you want to shoot pretty groups at 25 yards. From a practical accuracy standpoint the factory barrels in both my guns would have been fine for doing even outlier stuff like replicating Dicken shots at 50 yards.

How will M&P owners build a Stack-A-Toe if they can't get an Apex barrel?

The crew at Apex is working on cranking out more barrels. Hopefully more show up soon.

[mmc45414]

The crew at Apex is working on cranking out more barrels. Hopefully more show up soon.

I left one on backorder at Brownells, waiting for the Card Not Present text message one of these days...

[Archer1440]

Where we are headed is optic mounting on the pistol being no more complicated than mounting a dot on top of an AR. And that's a good thing for the vast majority of people.

You're probably right about that.

But, there will need to be a landslide shift by the optics makers, and the vast majority of them have no currently compelling reason to shift away from their proprietary solutions- unless a critical mass of consumers vote with their wallets.

And, with companies like S&W and Glock currently reserving their direct mount solutions to a small subset of the market (LE applications), that won't be happening as soon as it otherwise could.

A realistic, mass market alternative, is better plate interfaces, and better materials. Aluminum plates, plastic plates, plates that don't have slide-interfacing bosses, and crappy T-nuts are not the solution.