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Thread: "Don't Outrun Your Headlights"

  1. #21
    Supporting Business NH Shooter's Avatar
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    Avoiding Conflict with SA and Non-selection

    I suspect my experience is not unique within this group. It goes like this;

    1. I start with learning how to shoot a pistol
    2. I continue with learning to shoot a pistol as quickly and accurately as possible
    3. Daily concealed-carry enters the picture as a means of self-protection
    4. I focus on the legal and moral use of deadly force
    5. I learn that both pre-shoot and post-shoot actions (mine and others) can have lasting impact on my life
    6. Rolling the dice, I calculate I might be better off spending a few days in the hospital vs. the legal aftermath of an unjustified use of deadly force
    7. I embrace that fact that a fight avoided is a fight won
    8. I study what it takes to avoid the fight
    9. I arrive at the conclusion that 90% of self defense is the art of avoidance and not being selected

    In the larger picture of personal security and well being, my split times on-target are mostly irrelevant. That said, my confidence in being able to defend myself with my EDC pistol likely contributes to not being selected in the first place.
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  2. #22
    I can't presently locate the Force Science study I was seeking. Here is an article about a subsequent study referencing the one I was seeking, but the link is dead:

    https://www.forcescience.com/2010/03...is-subtleties/
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utm View Post
    They could do both, one does not detract from the other. The amount of tactics one would need to learn in the civilian realm is pretty limited though. The ability to clear your house and fight in some form or fashion with empty hands are about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    They can do both provided they have the time and resources.
    I think what @jlw doesn’t understand is that USPSA for a lot of people doesn’t come out of the same financial or time budget as safety / tactical training.

    For me I gave up television and movies for USPSA as lighthearted enjoyment.

    It’s a very different budget than self defense and training.

    I don’t think anyone (including myself) thinks that firearm skill replaces tactics and training.

  4. #24
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post

    Just speaking from a mechanical skill standpoint, the more subconscious your mechanics the more bandwidth you have to process other things like decision making.
    I’ve seen this up close in FoF training. I’ll pick on @Clusterfrack for a sec here, because I still have 2 marks COM that he gave me with a sim Glock. The evolution in question was most def a processing/decision making/verbal drill, and not a shooting drill. That said, because CF has done enough work that getting hits on moving targets is not a huge consumer of energy on his part, he was able to devote most of his processing power to the perception and decision making part of the evo, and when it came time to decide—consciously—to shoot, the hits were just there as a matter of course.

    So, yeah, great automaticity of shooting mechanics leaves valuable bandwidth available for clearer perception and decision making.

    Most def a “both” thing. JMO.
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  5. #25
    Member feudist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    I think what @jlw doesn’t understand is that USPSA for a lot of people doesn’t come out of the same financial or time budget as safety / tactical training.

    For me I gave up television and movies for USPSA as lighthearted enjoyment.

    It’s a very different budget than self defense and training.

    I don’t think anyone (including myself) thinks that firearm skill replaces tactics and training.
    USPSA/IDPA is also easier to access frequently and significantly cheaper to participate in as CCW training.

    Competition also tests on-demand execution in a way that is difficult to do in solo practice. Between range restrictions, target array availability and the innate desire to practice what you're good at, a lot of practice rounds get expended in repetitive drills. After a few reps, you're essentially taking the test over and over, as opposed to the one chance, no alibis/mulligans format in competition.

  6. #26
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feudist View Post

    Competition also tests on-demand execution in a way that is difficult to do in solo practice. Between range restrictions, target array availability and the innate desire to practice what you're good at, a lot of practice rounds get expended in repetitive drills. After a few reps, you're essentially taking the test over and over, as opposed to the one chance, no alibis/mulligans format in competition.
    Absolutely. Like practicing violin many hours a week at home in a room by yourself, vs. a performance onstage in front of an audience.

    You need both, frankly: the performance informs the practice discipline in a way that you really have to experience for yourself to get and, obviously, directed and goal-oriented practice increases performance during the pressure of the one-and-done micro events inherent in the applied activity.
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  7. #27
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    I’ve seen this up close in FoF training. I’ll pick on @Clusterfrack for a sec here, because I still have 2 marks COM that he gave me with a sim Glock. The evolution in question was most def a processing/decision making/verbal drill, and not a shooting drill. That said, because CF has done enough work that getting hits on moving targets is not a huge consumer of energy on his part, he was able to devote most of his processing power to the perception and decision making part of the evo, and when it came time to decide—consciously—to shoot, the hits were just there as a matter of course.

    So, yeah, great automaticity of shooting mechanics leaves valuable bandwidth available for clearer perception and decision making.

    Most def a “both” thing. JMO.
    I get so much more out of defensive firearms coursework now than I did 10 years ago. Similarly I expect a BJJ brown or black belt gets more out of ECQC and EWO than they would have as a beginner.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  8. #28
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    As a fat old civilian who has done a great deal of self-defense oriented training with Karl Rehn, Ayoob, Spaulding, Givens, Moses, Claude, Andy, Insights (Hamilton, Holschen), been to the old NTI several times through their ATSA village, Polite Society/TacCon, some local SWAT guys teaching classes, compete in IDPA, some steel, now some USPSA PLUS a PhD in Cognitive Psychology, Post Doc in Visual Neuroscience - blah, blah - IMHO:

    The gun games are just for trigger skills practice, reloading - they have little relation to self-defense decision making. They are not enough for someone wanting to defend themselves. Increasing performance in the games is fine but does not increase self-defense decision making. Unless you are with the Suicide Squad and facing Starro the Conqueror with Peacemaker, good speed on a Texas Star is nice but so what - you had better know about how to use the gun for self-defense and not just hits and scores. Yes, have gun handling skills but you need much more. No piece of cardboard ever approaches you in a dark room and says: Hey man, don't shoot me but keeps approaching. You never get held at gun point by a piece of cardboard that you try to disarm. Sometimes you 'die'. You might use an unrealistic gun. We've run small gun matches and watch the hits performance sink. Rehn has shown that.

    This isn't even discussing a good class on legal principles, tactical anatomy, etc. C hits - fast - so what.

    As JLW mentioned, Force Science and other human factors folks have worked out the timing of shots, stopping shots, more shots still fired after the decision to stop, etc.

    Steve Moses has it right. BTW, he and his co-instructor jumped me when I had to go throw a door with a revolver and unknown number of rounds. That was a touch more exciting than a Texas Star. I got shot in the shoulder, I shot them COM, IIRC - all in about a body touching cluster F.

    If the cardboard targets in the games were replaced by opponents who were armed (as in some FOF), you would be killed after the first 'target'). Certainly running full speed to an open door - great plan.

    What does the USPSA being cheaper than a class have to do with it? Nothing. I see folks who buy and buy new guns. Now a lot of the competitors I know train.

  9. #29
    The conversation does not have to turn into a this vs that. We can all agree that you should have the ability to make good legal decisions if you carry a gun and we should also agree that the better you can run a gun, the less your gun handling will be of concern in the defensive encounter.

    Shooting competitions every weekend will get your skills to a level that static range shooting and "tactical" courses typically won't. Shooting and tactics are not married. You should hone each skill.

    Someone that shoots a competition every weekend will probably be more prepared than someone that takes 1 or 2 classes a year and goes to the range occasionally. By default, a mid to high level comp shooter will handle the gun more and get more reps on everything.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    As a fat old civilian who has done a great deal of self-defense oriented training with Karl Rehn, Ayoob, Spaulding, Givens, Moses, Claude, Andy, Insights (Hamilton, Holschen), been to the old NTI several times through their ATSA village, Polite Society/TacCon, some local SWAT guys teaching classes, compete in IDPA, some steel, now some USPSA PLUS a PhD in Cognitive Psychology, Post Doc in Visual Neuroscience - blah, blah - IMHO:

    The gun games are just for trigger skills practice, reloading - they have little relation to self-defense decision making. They are not enough for someone wanting to defend themselves. Increasing performance in the games is fine but does not increase self-defense decision making. Unless you are with the Suicide Squad and facing Starro the Conqueror with Peacemaker, good speed on a Texas Star is nice but so what - you had better know about how to use the gun for self-defense and not just hits and scores. Yes, have gun handling skills but you need much more. No piece of cardboard ever approaches you in a dark room and says: Hey man, don't shoot me but keeps approaching. You never get held at gun point by a piece of cardboard that you try to disarm. Sometimes you 'die'. You might use an unrealistic gun. We've run small gun matches and watch the hits performance sink. Rehn has shown that.

    This isn't even discussing a good class on legal principles, tactical anatomy, etc. C hits - fast - so what.

    As JLW mentioned, Force Science and other human factors folks have worked out the timing of shots, stopping shots, more shots still fired after the decision to stop, etc.

    Steve Moses has it right. BTW, he and his co-instructor jumped me when I had to go throw a door with a revolver and unknown number of rounds. That was a touch more exciting than a Texas Star. I got shot in the shoulder, I shot them COM, IIRC - all in about a body touching cluster F.

    If the cardboard targets in the games were replaced by opponents who were armed (as in some FOF), you would be killed after the first 'target'). Certainly running full speed to an open door - great plan.

    What does the USPSA being cheaper than a class have to do with it? Nothing. I see folks who buy and buy new guns. Now a lot of the competitors I know train.
    You’re the guy who wanted pattern Mozambique training instead of judging each shot, right?

    Nobody is saying USPSA tactics are self defense tactics.

    We are just talking about developing mechanical skill that allows you bandwidth for (different) decision making in real life scenarios.

    If you don’t know what you are mechanically capable of, that also causes errors and decision paralysis.

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