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Thread: "Don't Outrun Your Headlights"

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    If someone is training to fire no matter what every time they draw the gun, that's a huge problem. But, getting on the trigger as soon as the muzzle is pointed at the target can be a valid technique for a faster shot, assuming that shot must be taken. It seems to me that we need to train for scenarios ranging from

    • Fire a shot as fast as humanly possible. See John Correa's numbers, listed in this article.
    • Draw to a ready position, finger off trigger.
    Reminded me of the tragic shooting at the Freeway Church of Christ near Fort Worth where a member in the back, close to the suspect, could not get his pistol cleared fast enough and died trying. It is a very sad and painful video to watch.

  2. #122
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    One thing about FOF, most professional FOF is tightly scripted and refereed. If it's just a bunch of folks, it just becomes a shoot'em up fun fest. Most scenarios have a point and the trainers/opponent role players are instructed how to act towards the trainees to teach them something. There's usually more to the scenario then just a draw and hits. Should you draw, should you go there, what to do after the shot, etc.?
    JMO, it boils down, again, to the right tool for the job. I’d do “mechanical” FoF practice any day of the week and twice on Sunday with guys like @Clusterfrack @RevolverRob @Flamingo @SLUZENE @marcin because I know what sort of intellect and character they bring to the table. And it would be fun, if not for the attendant mild scarification.

    But for deeper psychological, emotional, and cognitive processing roll playing stuff, I’d prefer to pay the ticket for another ride on the Craig train, since he’s put in the time and effort to be able to customize the scripting and refereeing to the players—with literally decades of experience in the game.

    Both “tools” could be valuable—and work together symbiotically.
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  3. #123
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    So I’ve been playing around with some of these concepts but wanted to test what I thought I knew about gaming and processing speed.

    Part of the issue I have with fallacy of gaming is that the skills are somehow anchored only in the context of gaming and they can’t be applied elsewhere context dependent.

    USPSA is skills development vehicle and the individual is the one who governs the application outside of the sport.

    This is for educational purposes only, but with a very well developed index and recoil control, I felt like I would better be able to rapidly process and decide to go if I needed to go.

    So I made a range robot.



    It’s all on random so no way to predict what and where it will be.

    Using the Active Self Protection data, I ran a scenario COLD from concealment.



    I didn’t need a buzzer to cue me.
    I did a pretty fast concealed draw with good mechanics on follow through.

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    Sub-second draw is just a surrogate for skills and index. It’s not about the actual sub second draw.

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    Last edited by JCN; 08-18-2022 at 02:09 PM.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    So I made a range robot.
    What took you so long? I mean, who doesn't have a range robot?
    O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason.

  5. #125
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    Judgement

    Quote Originally Posted by Moylan View Post
    What took you so long? I mean, who doesn't have a range robot?
    Ok, I Lol’d.

    This goes back to what we talked about way back when in training.

    Having a base open max draw of 0.65-0.7 gives you a concealed max draw of 0.8-0.85 to a 7 yard alpha.

    Doesn’t mean you have to go that fast, that’s just how you add time to base mechanics.

    In this case to hit a smaller target (head) with a can’t miss, can’t fumble shot wound up being around a 1.1 concealed.

    That was a judgment in real time to vision. I did it cold from regular T-shirt with the requirement mechanically that I could execute that shot 99/100 times without missing.

    If someone barely has a 1 second draw on a good day, they have no chance of doing it with reliability under pressure at that speed.

    Same thing with splits. I can split 14s, but here I split 23-24 ish because that’s what the vision and mechanics required of me shooting Lawman out of a compact gun while making sure I got my hits.

    But if someone can barely shoot 0.30 on open paper, they won’t be able to do faster and more accurately when called upon.

    Just an illustration that a GOOD gamer doesn’t have to run at hoser speed when they aren’t gaming.

    Which is kind of the point of the “Don’t outrun your Headlights” recommendation.
    Last edited by JCN; 08-18-2022 at 06:31 PM.

  6. #126
    Member feudist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    So I’ve been playing around with some of these concepts but wanted to test what I thought I knew about gaming and processing speed.

    Part of the issue I have with fallacy of gaming is that the skills are somehow anchored only in the context of gaming and they can’t be applied elsewhere context dependent.

    USPSA is skills development vehicle and the individual is the one who governs the application outside of the sport.

    This is for educational purposes only, but with a very well developed index and recoil control, I felt like I would better be able to rapidly process and decide to go if I needed to go.

    So I made a range robot.



    It’s all on random so no way to predict what and where it will be.

    Using the Active Self Protection data, I ran a scenario COLD from concealment.



    I didn’t need a buzzer to cue me.
    I did a pretty fast concealed draw with good mechanics on follow through.

    Name:  AFB389C5-2D6B-4A02-BA2A-5A2C7754A7F2.jpg
Views: 266
Size:  49.6 KB

    Sub-second draw is just a surrogate for skills and index. It’s not about the actual sub second draw.

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Views: 272
Size:  84.8 KB

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Views: 265
Size:  60.8 KB
    Is someone operating the robot?

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by feudist View Post
    Is someone operating the robot?
    Nope. It’s on full random so I have no idea what’s going to happen when.

  8. #128
    Member feudist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Nope. It’s on full random so I have no idea what’s going to happen when.
    Oh Hell yes!

  9. #129
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    So, @JCN... looks like your hand is injured? Did that affect your performance in the drill?
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    So, @JCN... looks like your hand is injured? Did that affect your performance in the drill?
    It probably did. On slow mo, you can see my strong thumb is floating because it is injured and I can’t clamp down.

    If I were healthy, I probably would have been faster and more accurate on the second shot.

    But you adapt with what you have and that’s what the non-gamers don’t realize. We don’t shoot to cadence, we shoot to vision and mechanics. If the vision isn’t there, you don’t take a borderline shot.


    If the mechanics aren’t there because of injury, you wait on your timing until you can see the shot.

    It’s active judgement rather than pattern reflex.

    That’s what people who haven’t been at this level don’t understand.

    B-class shooters IMO often suffer from gross judgement errors and inability to adapt to new situations at speed.

    That’s not the case with higher levels.

    For example, I shot an EDC X9 today cold which is single action plus safety, shooting full power Lawman from underneath a T-shirt that was sweaty. It’s very different in feel, grip angle and timing than a 45 ounce full size DASA Shadow 2 shooting 380 power gamer ammo… but it doesn’t matter. I listen to what my body can do and what the gun is doing and the adjustments are second nature.
    Last edited by JCN; 08-18-2022 at 08:30 PM.

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