"Don't Outrun Your Headlights"

[DDTSGM]

Bill Rogers discuss assessment in his Sunday night lecture, and suggests the Roger's range with their disappearing targets is a great place to observe how fast people assess. He says, absent someone shooting a shot out of frustration, there are almost no instances at the Rogers range of people firing after the target disappears. Given that each student shoots about 2,500 rounds in the week, almost all on disappearing targets, that is a pretty big sample.

I had a different take away from the Rogers course: my concern was that it is, as it is advertised, a reactionary shooting course. My thought was that there is no assessment practiced and that for most folks, the 1/4 second increments, end up being see plate, shoot.

Do you if Bill Rogers still travels to do the Sunday night lecture each class. and is on the range most of the week?

The problem I have with assessment on the Mozambique is the head is stationary, and I am not sure how you assess on a flat target that doesn't move.

After getting folks to stop the pistol/rifle before firing on the transition to the head, I would have them shooting drills with hammers or controlled pairs and randomingly call 'failure.'

What I found in our in-service courses is that despite doing it live on the range quite a bit, when it came to F on F training folks weren't transitioning. So,I would have them do drills where the role players continued to advance/fire until they took a Sim round to the face plate. I started doing those F on F drills before doing scenarios and found that pretty much cured the problem in subsequent courses.

[DDTSGM]

A couple anecdotal stories regarding additional skill opening up different tactical approaches.

Being a super fan of the level of firearms skill that special forces have trained to, the amount of skill they have that allows them to engage heads preferentially (at least per the delta memoirs) while moving and hostages nearby without misses is incredible. I think something to strive for from a technical shooting standpoint.

My interaction with this is gaming, I shot with a young gent on the Army Marksmanship Unit who decided to engage a plate rack at 20 yards on the move because he had the skill set. It fundamentally changed what options were available for cover and movement opposed to people who didn’t have that skill and needed a lot more stability to make those shots.

From engagement distances to cover as we’ve seen with the Dickens and the BJ and Tori civilian defenses, more skill opens up options that wouldn’t be available otherwise. And in the BJ scenario allowed him to hit the bad guy at long distance while not getting hit.

So training to start with body shots isn’t universal, it’s skill and context dependent. Certain units start and end with heads if available as I understand it. But there’s a price to pay in skill investment.

You've mentioned the SOF folks numerous times. One thing that I reflect on is that in the arena they train to operate in, they are not in general judged by the same standards as an LEO, for instance, knocking on a door and not knowing what his welcome will be.

I mentioned Rogers in an early post, that's predominately headshots, and every target presented is considered a shoot. That really isn't the situation you find yourself in as an LEO or a citizen.

[DDTSGM]

I participated in a sims FoF scenario where (short story) you knocked on a door to contact a DV suspect. When he opened the door he presented a pistol. I drew and fired several chest shots and he was still standing. I immediately transitioned to the head and fired once hitting the center of the mask’s eye piece and the actor went down. It was a hardwired response that thinking back on it I had to evaluate and decide. If it wasn’t trained into me repeatedly I don’t know that I would’ve made that fast of a transition. It was a good drill which required assessment.

You did the evaluation. Dude was still there and still a threat. That's different than banging a 2x1 straight from the holster as fast as you can go on a single decision.

So question for you:

If you had opened the door and on the initial assessment you deemed you had the skill to start with two head shots without missing, would you have started there?

I’m assuming the actor would have gone down sooner.

This is part of my point about the tactics may change depending on the skill set of the person.

When the actor opened the door could I have done that? Absolutely.

Coyote 97 and others, what do you think?

Here's my thought: We spend a lot of time teaching folks to shot high center mass. That's the default. So, making the decision to go head first, versus center mass, seems like it would be another cycle though an established OODA loop, and take a fraction longer.

Your thoughts?

[jlw]

I had a different take away from the Rogers course: my concern was that it is, as it is advertised, a reactionary shooting course. My thought was that there is no assessment practiced and that for most folks, the 1/4 second increments, end up being see plate, shoot.

A failing of the Rogers system is that there is no penalty for misses other than not getting points. A shooter can launch numerous rounds into downrange space at a plate; that doesn't work in a parking lot.

You've mentioned the SOF folks numerous times. One thing that I reflect on is that in the arena they train to operate in, they are not in general judged by the same standards as an LEO, for instance, knocking on a door and not knowing what his welcome will be.

I mentioned Rogers in an early post, that's predominately headshots, and every target presented is considered a shoot. That really isn't the situation you find yourself in as an LEO or a citizen.

Military units operate under rules of engagement, and those rules may allow for collateral damage and acceptable losses to accomplish a mission.

Domestic law enforcement operates under constitutional standards, as established by the Fourth Amendment, and under state/federal criminal law. Private citizens operate under state/federal criminal law and federal civil rights legislation under certain circumstances.

Those two worlds are not the same.

[DDTSGM]

From the sounds of the Rogers targets they seem pneumatically activated.

They are. When I went through Rogers it was with the idea of getting two set ups for our range. I thought the price quoted was quite reasonable. I was also told no way by admin.

[JCN]

You've mentioned the SOF folks numerous times. One thing that I reflect on is that in the arena they train to operate in, they are not in general judged by the same standards as an LEO, for instance, knocking on a door and not knowing what his welcome will be.

I mentioned Rogers in an early post, that's predominately headshots, and every target presented is considered a shoot. That really isn't the situation you find yourself in as an LEO or a citizen.

Great points and well taken.

I’m not a tactician and all I know is the level of skill they possess and train to rather than the application of it.

Even in recent active shooter scenarios, there was the first responder who was killed when his first shot hit bad guy body armor and he was killed before he could make a follow up shot. Sometimes you only get one shot.

Would a head shot would have had a different outcome than a body armor body shot? I don’t know, but it couldn’t have turned out worse.

If Dickens had encountered a bad guy with body armor, the outcome might have been a lot different.

You might not get a second shot.

When I first started pistol, it was because of the Aurora shooting where he was heavily armored and I figured preparation for that kind of event would require a very high level of proficiency to hit small targets at speed and not just the typical street thug encounter at 3 yards with 3 shots.

So from a pistol proficiency standpoint, I strive to be able to hit head size targets at speed with accuracy that the B class shooter can only execute a general body shot. That’s my own personal metric and not necessary.

[jlw]

Coyote 97 and others, what do you think?

Here's my thought: We spend a lot of time teaching folks to shot high center mass. That's the default. So, making the decision to go head first, versus center mass, seems like it would be another cycle though an established OODA loop, and take a fraction longer.

Your thoughts?

The general thought is that center mass is a larger target and thus more likely a hit and thus less likely a round continuing downrange. If a person has the skillset to make a headshot from the jump, that's not wrong; however...

Two dimensional, full value targets, even when moving, are not a direct correlation to actually putting sights on a three dimensional and animated target. In other words, putting sights on an actual human LOOKS a lot different than sights on paper or steel. Plus, you have the issue of the sudden, unpredictable movements of a living target.

[Joe in PNG]

A failing of the Rogers system is that there is no penalty for misses other than not getting points. A shooter can launch numerous rounds into downrange space at a plate; that doesn't work in a parking lot.



Military units operate under rules of engagement, and those rules may allow for collateral damage and acceptable losses to accomplish a mission.

Domestic law enforcement operates under constitutional standards, as established by the Fourth Amendment, and under state/federal criminal law. Private citizens operate under state/federal criminal law and federal civil rights legislation under certain circumstances.

Those two worlds are not the same.

Not to mention that cops or homeowners don't get to call in arty/airstrikes, or throw frags at potential threats.

[JCN]

Coyote 97 and others, what do you think?

Here's my thought: We spend a lot of time teaching folks to shot high center mass. That's the default. So, making the decision to go head first, versus center mass, seems like it would be another cycle though an established OODA loop, and take a fraction longer.

Your thoughts?

You asked in the meantime, but my non-tactical thought would be:

Recognize threat.
Shoot most effective target that you know you can hit without missing.

For me, it might start with a head shot and not to the body.

Again, just a silly example and not representative of real life but in a holster class I had to take, targets were legal paper size. The final drill was a surprise Tueller where the instructor without warning advanced the target at full speed at us while we had to draw and fire.

I distinctly remember thinking “oh, this is what we are doing” and “head is available.”



So I chose to shoot the drill just at the head. Because if someone was running at me and I could hit the head, I’m going for the head. I immediately recognized that it was available in my skill set.

By the way, I was shooting left handed to make it sporting…

[JCN]

They are. When I went through Rogers it was with the idea of getting two set ups for our range. I thought the price quoted was quite reasonable. I was also told no way by admin.

As an aside, the electric setup is much more economical and portable. Could this be something your department could use?