"Don't Outrun Your Headlights"

[feudist]

Not to mention that cops or homeowners don't get to call in arty/airstrikes, or throw frags at potential threats.

Personally, I'd take hand grenades to Sunday School if they'd let me.

[scjbash]

I can't presently locate the Force Science study I was seeking. Here is an article about a subsequent study referencing the one I was seeking, but the link is dead:

https://www.forcescience.com/2010/03...is-subtleties/

I thought I had a copy of the Lewinsky study mentioned in that article but can't find it. Force Science had two other relevant pages that I bookmarked that are also now dead. I'll leave the links anyway in case they ever come alive again.

This one was titled "Reaction Time"
https://www.forcescience.com/fsnews/178.html

This was the study about assailants being shot in the back. It includes a lot of information on reaction times but I can't remember if time to stop is included.
https://www.forcescience.com/articles/shotinback.pdf

I did save the shotinback pdf. I also have "Shooting Dynamics: Elements of Time & Movement in Shooting Incidents" by Alexander Jason. I think it's the basis of the article you linked. And I have "Reasonableness and Reaction Time" by Joycelyn Pollock, ALERRT, and other contributors. The files are too large to attach here but if anyone wants them pm me an email and I'll send them.

[DDTSGM]

As an aside, the electric setup is much more economical and portable. Could this be something your department could use?

I'm retired. From what I've been told they really aren't that interested in pressing the envelope in officer safety training.

[Clusterfrack]

Interesting post on Ben Stoeger's IG relevant to this thread topic:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cg2APxIDRgd

Here you can see @xray.alpha.llc training at competitive shooting speed. This is only safe to do in the controlled environment of a shooting range.

When Matt is in full kit operating operationally the shooting slows down to tactical speed. No human being can shoot like this under real world stress.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Is this useful:

https://uapdi.com/my/docs/shotback.pdf

WHY IS THE SUSPECT SHOT
IN THE BACK?
Finally, Hard Data on How Fast the Suspect Can Be
In 11 Different Shooting Scenarios
By Bill Lewinski, Ph.D.
The Police Marksman November/December 2000 pgs. 20-*‐28

https://heinonline.org/HOL/Page?hand...ction=journals

Police Quarterly
14(4) 323-343
@The Author(s) 2011
Reprints and permission:

reaand Reaction Time sagepub.com/journalsPermissions.nav
DOI: 10.1177/1098611111423737
http://pqx.sagepub.corn
https://www.hptc-pro.com/wp-content/...ction-Time.pdf
OSAGE
J. Pete Blair', Joycelyn Pollock', Don Montague',
Terry Nichols', John Curnuttl,

https://www.forcescience.com/2014/08...n-recognition/

https://www.police1.com/officer-shoo...yVoHO0jU9ByeJ/
Action vs. reaction: The shoot-first fallacy

[JHC]

Interesting post on Ben Stoeger's IG relevant to this thread topic:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cg2APxIDRgd

Here you can see @xray.alpha.llc training at competitive shooting speed. This is only safe to do in the controlled environment of a shooting range.

When Matt is in full kit operating operationally the shooting slows down to tactical speed. No human being can shoot like this under real world stress.

I try and keep and eye of xrayalpha's stuff. And I may miss something in the abbreviated and cryptic IG commentary but I get the impression he is a proponent of shooting in combat far faster than what is often termed assessment speed. In fact I've seen him explicitly mock assessment speed in IG posts.

Below Ben's notes xrayalpha makes a comment about how fast gunfights are.

So I'm not sure where he comes down on all of that.

But another very experienced gunfighter with similar background offered me this to contemplate on the Tree of Woe:

The first mistake most people make is under-estimating how fast gunfights occur.
The second mistake most people make is over-estimating how fast gunfights occur.
The third mistake is assuming they are all the same/similar.
The fourth is assuming they are all different.

Been trying to wrap my head around that a couple of years now.

Furthermore, I've seen it credibly argued that emotional control is quite a challenge in one's first gunfight. I'm generally skeptical that the first one or two will be easily modulated speed-wise. I "think" this is where DB was coming from in the discussions of how they trained their LEOs in their unit - with an extreme emphasis on precision at an assessment speed cadence so that is what they were habituated to do as they won't have dozens or more shootings to keep building upon.

ETA @Clusterfrack

[feudist]

I try and keep and eye of xrayalpha's stuff. And I may miss something in the abbreviated and cryptic IG commentary but I get the impression he is a proponent of shooting in combat far faster than what is often termed assessment speed. In fact I've seen him explicitly mock assessment speed in IG posts.

Below Ben's notes xrayalpha makes a comment about how fast gunfights are.

So I'm not sure where he comes down on all of that.

But another very experienced gunfighter with similar background offered me this to contemplate on the Tree of Woe:

The first mistake most people make is under-estimating how fast gunfights occur.
The second mistake most people make is over-estimating how fast gunfights occur.
The third mistake is assuming they are all the same/similar.
The fourth is assuming they are all different.

Been trying to wrap my head around that a couple of years now.

Furthermore, I've seen it credibly argued that emotional control is quite a challenge in one's first gunfight. I'm generally skeptical that the first one or two will be easily modulated speed-wise. I "think" this is where DB was coming from in the discussions of how they trained their LEOs in their unit - with an extreme emphasis on precision at an assessment speed cadence so that is what they were habituated to do as they won't have dozens or more shootings to keep building upon.

ETA @Clusterfrack

Hunter B. Armstrong of the International Hoplology Society takes the position that emotional control in personal combat is the primary focus of all the Japanese Koryu systems and that technical prowess was a distant second. Hence live blade Kata were controlled experiences of mortal danger. As distance increases, the need for technical prowess increases(E.G., Archery) and the effects of extreme emotional dislocation lessen.
The various methods of cultivating emotional control were generally based on acceptance of death, "Othering"(dehumanizing) your opponent, and suppressing the chimpanzee in your head by focusing on awareness in the moment vs. dwelling on the future by using breathing and meditation, postures, mudra(hand gestures)and seed words.

[jlw]

Interesting post on Ben Stoeger's IG relevant to this thread topic:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cg2APxIDRgd

Here you can see @xray.alpha.llc training at competitive shooting speed. This is only safe to do in the controlled environment of a shooting range.

When Matt is in full kit operating operationally the shooting slows down to tactical speed. No human being can shoot like this under real world stress.

The LAPD female officer (McBride?) that was in a shooting a year or so ago shot at roughly .5 splits in the incident, but there is plenty of video of her burning it down on a square range.

[Eyesquared]

The question is how much faster and more accurate Matt’s tactical speed is than a regular B class LEO.

No doubt things SHOULD slow down with the extra processing needed during real life.

But the question is what additional options open up with extra performance over B class.

I think Ben was being facetious when he made that post - he posted that right after Matt posted a different video of himself shooting MXAD with this description:

"In training, shoot in a way that is uncomfortable to you. Pushing performance is the only way to get batter. You will fail and not get the results you want. The work in training is to make changes so you get the result you want without “slowing down”. If you’re a tactical shooter slowing down is never the answer, if your a practical shooter that wants to win it’s also not the answer. The goal is to have control at speed."

I will say that I think people come down on this very differently depending on if their natural disposition is to shoot controlled (turtle style) or at the edge of their capability (hoser style). I think people who were former turtles tend to discount the difficulty some people have with shooting at a controlled pace. Like you always see a couple guys at the local match who mechanically can shoot at a M class level but almost always bomb 1 stage of the match pushing too hard and it plagues them match after match even though they know what they're doing wrong.

[JCN]

"In training, shoot in a way that is uncomfortable to you. Pushing performance is the only way to get batter. You will fail and not get the results you want. The work in training is to make changes so you get the result you want without “slowing down”. If you’re a tactical shooter slowing down is never the answer, if your a practical shooter that wants to win it’s also not the answer. The goal is to have control at speed."

I will say that I think people come down on this very differently depending on if their natural disposition is to shoot controlled (turtle style) or at the edge of their capability (hoser style). I think people who were former turtles tend to discount the difficulty some people have with shooting at a controlled pace. Like you always see a couple guys at the local match who mechanically can shoot at a M class level but almost always bomb 1 stage of the match pushing too hard and it plagues them match after match even though they know what they're doing wrong.

Oh! Perfect! Thanks for the context! I don’t Instagram so I didn’t have the context.

I agree completely with Matt. He’s delta or special forces, right?

Regarding turtle and hoser, I think those guys sometimes get vilified by FUDDs not realizing neither is the goal and if you ever saw Max Michel or other top GMs shoot they never look rushed, just efficient with a shit ton of alphas at speed.

That’s kind of the point I was making. More skill is more skill and opens up options.

Most people practice handguns as a sport or hobby and it’s a different bucket of opportunity cost than self defense tactical classes.