"Don't Outrun Your Headlights"

[jlw]

No, we weren't just talking about mechanical skills. You are the one who thinks that mechanical skills are the end all and be all. You misinterpret what I said about the Mozambique pattern as a part of a motor memory that one might need if faced with a failure to stop. I guess all the tactical trainers I've been with don't have your great fighting insights about failure to stop drills. Tactical courses give you cognitive skills and perceptual skills that are as needed as mechanical skills. Practicing failure to stop seems to not make sense to you. Dumb SWAT guy that Karl had as a guest and running us such with reactive targets. Dumb NTI drills with similar reactive targets.

I can see why you are on ignore for some.

The Mozambique has a return to the guard after the two center body shots prior to transitioning to the head.

The Failure Drill was an LAPD adaptation of the Mozambique. It removed the return to the guard in favor of a direct transition to the head along with a two part assessment: 1- Is the head still there? 2- Is this person still a deadly force threat?

The above came directly from one of the two LAPD guys responsible for it.

If one is shooting two to the chest and then making the transition and head shot as fast as possible without the assessment, one is simply shooting two to the chest and one to the head and not a Failure Drill.

[jlw]

I once had a district attorney ask for input on a shooting where he was trying to decide whether to charge an officer. Long story short, a foot pursuit ended with a deputy cuffing a suspect on the ground. As the backup arrived on scene he saw the suspect's father with a piece of lumber raised to strike the cuffing officer. The father ended up getting shot in the back.

I immediately told the DA that the backup officer, seeing the threat was drawing to fire to protect his partner, and the father seeing this, dropped the stick and was turning to flee when the officer fired. The officer once the decision to fire was made - justified at the time - simply wasn't able to shut down the impulse.

I told him that I'd seen similar instances countless times during use-of-force simulations and showed him several scenarios where this often occurred on our systems. By the time he left I was certain he was going to rule the shooting justified. He left the case file and I wrote a report. Instead, a coroner's inquest was convened, and he paid an expert witness to say what I had told him for free.

End result was in the officer's favor.

The Force Science study that I can't presently find described instances very much like you described. The title referenced shots in the back not necessarily indicating a bad shoot.

[MVS]

My argument is more lighthearted. My definition of a half test is different than Steve's. I do half tests to save ammo, therefore they are 10 yards, 5 shots in 5 seconds. Usually for me these days on a 3X5 card.

[MickAK]

Here's a decent thread on Assessment speed with commentary from Bolke and Dobbs. Ayoob also weighs in.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....sessment-speed

I'd still like someone's thoughts on practicing this task.

This is what works for me.

The problem with a lot of assessment drills is they're no-shoots which is a valuable skill to practice but trains recognizing a no-shoot. That's good, and it helps, but after a point it doesn't really seem to help me assess faster just recognize predetermined stimulus and halt.

So I take the stops off a really fast spring up target so it falls forward without stopping and put a random timed release on it, then run whatever 3 target drill I've been working on with the spring target behind one of them. The goal is to not hit the spring target but still make par which forces me to assess at speed with a tough par time.

This could possibly have practical applications but the point is more to train assessment, not just halt reflex, especially in low light.

[JCN]

This is what works for me.

The problem with a lot of assessment drills is they're no-shoots which is a valuable skill to practice but trains recognizing a no-shoot. That's good, and it helps, but after a point it doesn't really seem to help me assess faster just recognize predetermined stimulus and halt.

So I take the stops off a really fast spring up target so it falls forward without stopping and put a random timed release on it, then run whatever 3 target drill I've been working on with the spring target behind one of them. The goal is to not hit the spring target but still make par which forces me to assess at speed with a tough par time.

This could possibly have practical applications but the point is more to train assessment, not just halt reflex, especially in low light.

That is an interesting drill.

Maybe I could adapt it with something like the electric target.



I would have to do it with music playing otherwise my ears would cue stoppage when I heard the motor before seeing the target.

As a light hearted aside, I dry practice at home a lot when my daughter runs around.

I often have to abort drills mid string when she darts across the course of fire.

I have never muzzled her yet (dry gun has firing pin trimmed for extra safety in addition to no live rounds).

[GJM]

Bill Rogers discuss assessment in his Sunday night lecture, and suggests the Roger's range with their disappearing targets is a great place to observe how fast people assess. He says, absent someone shooting a shot out of frustration, there are almost no instances at the Rogers range of people firing after the target disappears. Given that each student shoots about 2,500 rounds in the week, almost all on disappearing targets, that is a pretty big sample.

The problem I have with assessment on the Mozambique is the head is stationary, and I am not sure how you assess on a flat target that doesn't move.

[MickAK]

That is an interesting drill.

Maybe I could adapt it with something like the electric target.



I would have to do it with music playing otherwise my ears would cue stoppage when I heard the motor before seeing the target.

As a light hearted aside, I dry practice at home a lot when my daughter runs around.

I often have to abort drills mid string when she darts across the course of fire.

I have never muzzled her yet (dry gun has firing pin trimmed for extra safety in addition to no live rounds).

You can release a spring target with a solenoid pretty soundlessly.

Not to be Safety Sally but I disagree that it's ok to dryfire with kids running around anywhere they can cross the course of fire, firing pin or no firing pin.

[revchuck38]

"Don't Outrun Your Headlights"

My headlights are dimming as I age. It's an effort to stay within them.

[JCN]

You can release a spring target with a solenoid pretty soundlessly.

Not to be Safety Sally but I disagree that it's ok to dryfire with kids running around anywhere they can cross the course of fire, firing pin or no firing pin.

Do you have a link to the spring targets? I’m not familiar with them. I was just thinking about stuff I already have readily available.

I have turning targets I could use to block actual drill targets too.

Re: children and dry fire, I think we all have different comfort levels. I can say that I have never, ever muzzled my daughter. Ever.

And it has helped me with situational awareness that no matter how intense the practice, I’m also acutely aware of where she is at all times.

Some additional safety things:

Dry fire equipment is dedicated dry fire. Mags, belts, gun.
Gun is locked up always when not in holster.
Firing pin cut.
Chamber lock (omega, uses barrel torx to expand and wedge a pseudo snap cap in the chamber).
Dummy rounds in mags (colored blue, I don’t own any blue live rounds).
Dry mags are labeled with different colored base pads than live mags.

And I’ve never ever muzzled another human during dry fire. I’m comfortable with it. I understand that others may not be.

[MickAK]

Do you have a link to the spring targets? I’m not familiar with them. I was just thinking about stuff I already have readily available.

They may be commercially available but I have always made my own. The disappearing targets GJM talks about at the Rogers school sound similarly fast they may be able to help source.