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Thread: "Don't Outrun Your Headlights"

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    If someone is training to fire no matter what every time they draw the gun, that's a huge problem. But, getting on the trigger as soon as the muzzle is pointed at the target can be a valid technique for a faster shot, assuming that shot must be taken. It seems to me that we need to train for scenarios ranging from

    • Fire a shot as fast as humanly possible. See John Correa's numbers, listed in this article.
    • Draw to a ready position, finger off trigger.
    That article is a treasure trove. Thanks man!
    God Bless,

    Brandon

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    If someone is training to fire no matter what every time they draw the gun, that's a huge problem. But, getting on the trigger as soon as the muzzle is pointed at the target can be a valid technique for a faster shot, assuming that shot must be taken. It seems to me that we need to train for scenarios ranging from

    • Fire a shot as fast as humanly possible. See John Correa's numbers, listed in this article.
    • Draw to a ready position, finger off trigger.
    Holy fuck that’s a great link. I didn’t click until @BWT commented.

    Here are some screen caps:

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    Data regarding tiers of skills and opportunities that they open up.
    Currently I’m still within the acceptable dickhead parameter of PF 2017+.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    According to Pat Rogers post on Lightfighter years ago, after the NYPD shooting on Times Square (IIRC), those are just blobs and don't count.

    Don't know, maybe he'd have stood behind that statement if someone he'd taught got in a jam.
    I'm not putting down the cop just that I see this in a lot in videos of OIS's. I'm not sure how you can train past the tendency to focus on the threat while always maintaining awareness of the background. Especially when focusing on the front sight as is commonly taught.

    Can it be done?

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Redhat View Post
    I'm not putting down the cop just that I see this in a lot in videos of OIS's. I'm not sure how you can train past the tendency to focus on the threat while always maintaining awareness of the background. Especially when focusing on the front sight as is commonly taught.

    Can it be done?
    My answer would be yes, but in reality, no, not for the masses. I don't think it can be done solely on the live-fire range. Exercises such as placing a shoot target amidst a cluster of no shoot targets and having the shooter maneuver to get a clear shot on the shoot target can be of value, but they don't do the whole job.

    We can train folks to perceive, versus just see, through training. I'm a big proponent of improving situational awareness using the concepts associated with commentary driving - simply talking about what you see as it is associated with the driving task. In the venue of situational awareness, you talk about things, situations or persons that could impact your safety - after a while it becomes a habit. You also strive to develop a pattern of scanning or looking that makes your more aware of your environment.

    The initial problem, for some people, is recognizing things that impact the driving task, or personal safety. Once the person is fairly salty about observing the environment around them they still aren't prepared for that level of observation under stress.

    That is where a carefully developed force-on-force or computerized force simulation program comes into play to anchor the concepts into the subconscious mind.

    Thoughts?
    Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    My answer would be yes, but in reality, no, not for the masses. I don't think it can be done solely on the live-fire range. Exercises such as placing a shoot target amidst a cluster of no shoot targets and having the shooter maneuver to get a clear shot on the shoot target can be of value, but they don't do the whole job.

    We can train folks to perceive, versus just see, through training. I'm a big proponent of improving situational awareness using the concepts associated with commentary driving - simply talking about what you see as it is associated with the driving task. In the venue of situational awareness, you talk about things, situations or persons that could impact your safety - after a while it becomes a habit. You also strive to develop a pattern of scanning or looking that makes your more aware of your environment.

    The initial problem, for some people, is recognizing things that impact the driving task, or personal safety. Once the person is fairly salty about observing the environment around them they still aren't prepared for that level of observation under stress.

    That is where a carefully developed force-on-force or computerized force simulation program comes into play to anchor the concepts into the subconscious mind.

    Thoughts?
    Thanks for the detailed reply. Thoughts? Yeah, more questions than answers. I've done FoF back in the day with miles gear and FATS. Maybe start with interviews as to what the officer recalled seeing or being aware of besides the threat during the encounter. Maybe that could help determine how well a person's level of broad awareness held up during high stress incidents. It would be interesting to compare their perception vs any available video.

  6. #106
    Site Supporter feudist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redhat View Post
    Thanks for the detailed reply. Thoughts? Yeah, more questions than answers. I've done FoF back in the day with miles gear and FATS. Maybe start with interviews as to what the officer recalled seeing or being aware of besides the threat during the encounter. Maybe that could help determine how well a person's level of broad awareness held up during high stress incidents. It would be interesting to compare their perception vs any available video.
    Here's a selective attention test that is quite illustrative you can do online.


  7. #107
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    Think I mentioned this work before. But good to reinforce the principles.

    Here's a summary of a study:

    The Effect of Brief Situational Awareness Training in a Police Shooting Simulator: An Experimental Study
    Authors: Evelyn-Rose Saus Military Psychology, Volume 18, Issue 3s July 2006 , pages S3 - S21

    Students from the Norwegian Police University College

    SA-trained group received scenario-based training with freeze technique and reflection based on the SA stages,
    Control group received skill training.
    SA was measured both subjectively and objectively and
    Performance was measured by the number of shots fired and number of hits.

    Results:
    SA-trained group to have higher SA.
    Better performance
    Less mental workload measured as suppression of heart rate variability
    Brief SA-specific training in a shoot-not shoot simulator can improve police cadets' SA in critical situations

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile...ntal-Study.pdf

    https://carleton.ca/policeresearchla...mulation_t.pdf
    Psychology, Public Policy, and Law
    2007, Vol. 13, No. 1, 35–58
    DOES USE-OF-FORCE SIMULATION TRAINING IN
    CANADIAN POLICE AGENCIES INCORPORATE
    PRINCIPLES OF EFFECTIVE TRAINING?
    Craig Bennell, Natalie J. Jones, and Shevaun Corey
    Carleton University
    Numerous police agencies in Canada incorporate use-of-force simulation training
    into their overall instructional regime. A prominent theory of learning, known as
    cognitive load theory, suggests that in order for this training to be effective,
    instructional methods must facilitate the acquisition and automation of task-relevant
    schemas without overwhelming the limited processing capacity of the learner. In
    this article, several instructional effects, proposed and supported by the cognitive
    load literature, are discussed. These training effects operate by minimizing unnec-
    essary cognitive demands, by drawing on instructional methods that enhance
    schema acquisition, and/or by carefully managing the inherent complexity of the
    to-be-learned material. The argument is advanced that although use-of-force simu-
    lation training may be able to capitalize on many of these effects, at present there
    is little evidence to suggest that it currently does. The authors conclude by discuss-
    ing the urgent need to assess how the knowledge gained from cognitive load theory
    might serve to enhance the effectiveness of use-of-force simulation training
    Last edited by Glenn E. Meyer; 08-05-2022 at 05:10 PM.

  8. #108
    Thanks for posting that.

    During F on F, our process was to 'Socratically' (is that a word?) guide the participant through an AAR after each scenario. Our process was also to redo the scenario if time allowed or if the officer had an unsatisfactory outcome. We were also to stop the scenario if the officer was going completely off the rails, do the AAR as quickly as possible, and redo the scenario.

    In almost every case, the second guided AAR was more detailed than that of the first scenario.

    I routinely asked student officers 'so, when did you forget you were in a scenario?' invariably the answer was along the lines of 'as soon as the guy started to get out of the vehicle' or, in other words as soon as they needed to take self-initiated action. This same response was virtually universal during both f on f and using our computer systems.

    I also closely observed the participants for signs of stress - shifting of feet, clenching hands, etc. Not at all unusual to see these signs.

    Very few officers told me 'I never did forget it was a scenario.'
    Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....

  9. #109
    Site Supporter Giving Back's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feudist View Post
    Clearly an issue that needs to be trained for.

    Exactly...how?
    In combat, time is a zero sum resource, the opponents act simultaneously and every split second not used in finishing the fight is available to your opponent to be used to kill or cripple you...or another innocent in his downrange hazard fan.
    We know now that bullets have to transect particular anatomical structures(timers and switches) to have any timely effect on forcing an opponent's behavior to change, and that multiple rounds may be required to hit those structures.
    We also know from videos that a big percentage of predatory opponents flee or stop being a threat as soon as rounds come their way(Fuck! I'm being shot at!) or as soon as they're hit anywhere(Fuck! I've been shot!)

    Setting an arbitrary speed limit seems optimistic at best. I remember Ayoob observing years ago that most people go cyclic in shootings and that the rate of fire was 4-5 shots per second. I reasoned that training should therefore be aimed at controlling that rate of fire accurately and precisely. That's not an insurmountable goal at close range.

    When Bolke and Dobbs began posting about "assessment speed" a light turned on. Watching videos where the shooter essentially uses his pistol as a shotgun, pointing the first shot at the offender and then triggering the rest of them as a cyclic burst of Hopers at moving twisting targets turned on another.

    But again, exactly how do you train for an unpredictably moving 3D target that might need to be hit in a very specific spot covered with flapping clothing, with bullets that may or may not have any timely effect unless you smash the spine or the brain, that can collapse, surrender or turn to run inside your perceptual reaction time, when your allowing him another quarter second's time to shoot may kill or cripple you or another innocent behind you, and your misses may kill another innocent behind him....while being filmed so that lawyers can take months to go frame by frame to see if you were justified by the millisecond, and the Nation's politicians eye the mob to see if there's an momentary advantage to destroying your life.

    Be specific, and show your work, please.
    Same way you train for any event or situation. You go out and do it.

    Unpredictable 3D moving target you say? Got a friend? Dog? Kids? Spouse? There’s your 3D erratic target……. Train.
    You can get much more of what you want with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.

  10. #110
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giving Back View Post
    Same way you train for any event or situation. You go out and do it.

    Unpredictable 3D moving target you say? Got a friend? Dog? Kids? Spouse? There’s your 3D erratic target……. Train.
    I'm going to see if Mrs. CF will run around and let me shoot her with airsoft
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

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