Interesting article on firearm instruction in the police academy

[Jim Watson]

researching a bit about Askins

Why, he shot the first man ever killed with a .44 Magnum, how can you beat that?

His Army career in equipment recovery was highlighted by shooting a German in the back while he was breaking carburetors on captured trucks.

[HCM]

I wish you guys hadn't piqued my curiosity.

I knew Elmer Keith was an unethical (IMO) hunter, became a not fan of his after reading Hell, I Was There. So, after researching a bit about Askins, it turns out he was what I would describe as a soulless sociopath.

Regardless of what anybody says, I'm not digging in any deeper to the lives of Skeeter Skelton and Bill Jordan - No Second Place Winner was an eye-opener, but I don't think he was nuts.

Next thing you know someone will disclose the Patrck McManus and Bill Cosby used to go to roofie parties together.

I think your assessment of Askins is accurate.

Jordan (and what he wrote in No Second Place Winner) were products of his time / environment. His uncle was the Parrish Sheriff involved in the ambush of Bonnie and Clyde. I think it provides insight into where he was coming from.

Speaking of Jordan. I’ve mentioned before that Jeff Coopers greatest contribution to the shooting world had nothing to do with 1911s or the Weaver stance, but rather was the “Four rules” because from a safety POV gun handling back in the day was abysmal. Later in his career Jordan had a negligent discharge in a Border Patrol station while examining a colleagues personal pistol. The bullet went through an interior wall and killed another Border Patrol Agent.

I’m not too worried about Skeeter.

[willie]

Those who drink more than they should everyday and have done so for years usually develop dependence on alcohol. These folks probably do need a couple drinks to steady themselves. My opinion is that as they age, serious competition weeds them out.

[41magfan]

The 800 lb gorilla in the room that's seldom (if ever) addressed in discussions like this is the caliber of the Trainee. Having been a firearms trainer for 40 yrs now, I can clearly see some disparity in the quality of the recruit/officer as time has marched on. More times than I care to admit, I've had Trainees/Officers that couldn't/wouldn't retain information for more than a few hours, much less days, weeks or months. I recall one veteran Officer (15+ years) that NEVER learned how to correctly clear a malfunction ..... never!

Having said that, I know for a fact that you can achieve some pretty decent results with 50 hrs of instruction and 1,500 rounds if the Trainee is properly motivated. I remember quite clearly that there were several students in my Gunsite 250 class that barely knew which end of the gun the bullet came out. By the end of the week however, you wouldn't want any of those folks shooting at you inside of 50 feet.

Training to a level of competence is pretty straightforward, but it's not easy, and most people can't/won't address all of the variables.

[DDTSGM]

The 800 lb gorilla in the room that's seldom (if ever) addressed in discussions like this is the caliber of the Trainee. Having been a firearms trainer for 40 yrs now, I can clearly see some disparity in the quality of the recruit/officer as time has marched on. More times than I care to admit, I've had Trainees/Officers that couldn't/wouldn't retain information for more than a few hours, much less days, weeks or months. I recall one veteran Officer (15+ years) that NEVER learned how to correctly clear a malfunction ..... never!

Having said that, I know for a fact that you can achieve some pretty decent results with 50 hrs of instruction and 1,500 rounds if the Trainee is properly motivated. I remember quite clearly that there were several students in my Gunsite 250 class that barely knew which end of the gun the bullet came out. By the end of the week however, you wouldn't want any of those folks shooting at you inside of 50 feet.

Training to a level of competence is pretty straightforward, but it's not easy, and most people can't/won't address all of the variables.

I agree with what you've posted.

I think that your 'trainee is properly motivated' is absolutely spot on. I feel that many of the students I helped train, especially the female officers, approached firearms training with a great deal of trepidation. They went in with the notion that they were not going to enjoy firearms training and, of course that is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

We can do a lot to remove that mindset, but unfortunately the rigid, this many hours, this many rounds, regardless of the weather, schedules which permeate LE training are ill-suited to address many of the concerns.

The students in your Gunsite 250 were motivated to be there because they saw a need for the training, which is one of the first hurdles to be cleared when instructing adults.

In a recent thread Bill Jordan, Charles Askins and Skeeter Skelton, the old Border Patrol shooters, were mentioned. Their motivation to be great shooters was probably the fact that during that era, and in that location, it was said they were involved in a gunfight on an average of once every ten days. Easy to see why the Border Patrol produced such shooters.

Contrast that with the officer from an agency that doesn't have many officer-involved shootings on patrol. In those circumstances, the officer may not be persuaded to feel the need to be a gunfighter is the most pressing skill to develop. If it were, those particular folks would have already self-selected out.

I often found myself looking at student officers and wondering what drove their career choice? Why does a slightly built, short statured person choose to become a police officer? Isn't it apparent to them that even with good conditioning, and good skills, a 130-pound versus 240-pound ground fight isn't likely to do their way?

It won't happen to me is a powerful thought for the trainer to overcome.

[41magfan]

I often found myself looking at student officers and wondering what drove their career choice? Why does a slightly built, short statured person choose to become a police officer? Isn't it apparent to them that even with good conditioning, and good skills, a 130-pound versus 240-pound ground fight isn't likely to do their way?

It won't happen to me is a powerful thought for the trainer to overcome.

Indeed!

When I started in LE, height and weight requirements had just been abolished in most places. That move away from such long-standing criteria wasn't just about being "inclusive" to women, and small statured men as it was to help weed out the strong-willed, free and independent thinking recruits.

I make those points to make this point concerning your speculations;

Their career choice was based on the delusion that being 5 feet tall and weighing 130 lbs is no impediment to being a LEO. That delusion was positively reinforced when they were successful in getting hired. Sadly, that delusion is far too often bolstered even further when they are not only retained, but eventually rewarded with promotion(s).

But, the biggest tragedy of all is the fact that a disproportionate number of these folks end up being part of the command staff or even agency heads. This dysfunctional paradigm is why the practice of law enforcement these days too often resembles a goat roping.

[Stephanie B]

The other day I was wandering around unaware and I wondered if there was a condition even lighter than white.

"Condition Transparent"?

So, after researching a bit about Askins, it turns out he was what I would describe as a soulless sociopath.

Mas mentions in his book Combat Shooting, that Askins admitted as much.

Along those lines, the number of topic areas for my state's basic LE certification training just keeps expanding and the old saying; "a mile wide and an inch deep" always come to mind.

Sounds like studying for the bar exam. One instructor said that the goal was a "glib familiarity" with all areas of the law. (I kept my bar exam books for years and used them as a starting place if an unfamiliar topic came up.) But at least I could avoid areas that I wasn't current in. You guys, on the other hand...

[Chuck Whitlock]

So, after researching a bit about Askins, it turns out he was what I would describe as a soulless sociopath.

Mas mentions in his book Combat Shooting, that Askins admitted as much.

...As evidenced by the title of his autobiography.

https://www.amazon.com/Unrepentant-S...1774981&sr=8-1

[vcdgrips]

SB

Brighter than white...?

I claim the term "Condition Pixelated" because of the active inattentiveness to the world given the subjects' focus on a screen of some sort.

[Totem Polar]

"Condition Pixelated...”

Dude. That’s perfect.