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Thread: Is Springfield teasing a 2011?

  1. #451
    A bit more info.

    Herron is using the 5" and not the 4.25" as I posted yesterday. He is using Atlas mags and not MBX.

    I don't know what all may have been changed but looking at the gun in the holster he is using the OEM hammer and ambi safety. The only obvious additions are what I believe is an EGW mag well and an extended screw-on mag release.

    I used my Prodigy today. We shot probably 300 rounds. I had three failures to feed. Two were early in the morning while using the 20rd DuraMags. The third was late in the afternoon with a 17rd CMI.

    One of the 20rd malfunctions was just a round stalled out on the feed ramp. Pulling the slide back and letting it go cleared it. The other two were both rounds nose dived hard and snagged on the bottom of the feed ramp. Interestingly all three malfunctions were with 147 grain JHP duty ammo. I also used some Stand 1 Armory 145 grain Chub and my own reloads that are a 147ish coated LWSC made by Acme.

    I will run the gun again the 3rd and final day with using JHP and DuraMag 17 rounders to see what happens. Granted this may not be the best venue to troubleshoot my junk.

    Tim shooting a demo with his pistol.



    Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

  2. #452
    Site Supporter Elwin's Avatar
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    If one is replacing all the ignition parts to get rid of mim, it seems it just makes sense to just go with a new safety of your preference since youíve ditched the sear the old one was fitted to.

    ETA - I would think itís possible youíd have to based on which direction the tolerance differences run. Maybe not with EGW oversized stuff but Iíd have to think itís at least possible.

  3. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Elwin View Post
    If one is replacing all the ignition parts to get rid of mim, it seems it just makes sense to just go with a new safety of your preference since youíve ditched the sear the old one was fitted to.
    I was talking to a metallurgist who is a client of mine about the whole thing the other day. He said MIM gets a bad rap in the firearms world because of a huge debacle by a company that rhymes with timber. His argument was that from reputable company that does it right, MIM *can* last a lifetime and Colt/SA MIM processes were gtg. Although he did say ambi-safeties and slide stops do not apply here, to go machined.

    Now my memory is fuzzy, but it took me back years to when i remember reading a forum a looooong time ago where people were documenting several high round count stock TRPs (MIM parts) and aside from the occasional broken slide stop, 1 barrel link, and spring replacements, nothing else failed under 70,000 rounds. A Les Baer that was also being shot with the TRPs failed at around 85,000 with a broken barrel link. I don't have any recollection of anything past the 70,000 mark because at the time, i was debating my first 1911 purchase: a TRP or Colt Rail and that whole test cemented it. (The Colt won)

    I have around 5,000+ rounds though my Colt 45 and I didnt change any parts but it runs like a top. So here is my new plan for the Prodigy: I replaced the slide stop, the ambi with a single side safety, and guide rod with a Dawson tool less, now it's shoot to failure.

  4. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by coN View Post
    I was talking to a metallurgist who is a client of mine about the whole thing the other day. He said MIM gets a bad rap in the firearms world because of a huge debacle by a company that rhymes with timber. His argument was that from reputable company that does it right, MIM *can* last a lifetime and Colt/SA MIM processes were gtg. Although he did say ambi-safeties and slide stops do not apply here, to go machined.

    Now my memory is fuzzy, but it took me back years to when i remember reading a forum a looooong time ago where people were documenting several high round count stock TRPs (MIM parts) and aside from the occasional broken slide stop, 1 barrel link, and spring replacements, nothing else failed under 70,000 rounds. A Les Baer that was also being shot with the TRPs failed at around 85,000 with a broken barrel link. I don't have any recollection of anything past the 70,000 mark because at the time, i was debating my first 1911 purchase: a TRP or Colt Rail and that whole test cemented it. (The Colt won)

    I have around 5,000+ rounds though my Colt 45 and I didnt change any parts but it runs like a top. So here is my new plan for the Prodigy: I replaced the slide stop, the ambi with a single side safety, and guide rod with a Dawson tool less, now it's shoot to failure.
    As someone who had a MIM slide stop break on a Colt Wiley Clapp at less than 3k rounds issues with MIM 1911 parts for hard use go beyond Kimber.

    MIM does get a bad rap in that parts designed around the properties of MIM materials like those found in modern HK pistols or the long extractors in Sig classic P series guns are fine.

    The problem comes when you try to make parts designed and dimensioned as forgings from MIM.

    Take MIM out of the equation.

    AR15 receivers were designed and dimensioned around an aluminum forging.

    Early attempts at making polymer, AR15 receivers, which retained the original dimensions were notorious failures. Even with metal reinforcements polymer was not strong enough when substituted for aluminum in the original dimensions.

    When CAV arms re designed / re dimensioned an AR receiver for the material properties of polymer it worked fine as seen in the current KE Arms / WWSD rifles.

  5. #455
    Interestingly all three malfunctions were with 147 grain JHP duty ammo.
    If like my single stack SAs, the ramp is too steep - case support, don't you know - and should be brought down.
    I have read that the 31 deg ramp angle of a 1911 applies to all of the type but can't say for sure.
    Code Name: JET STREAM

  6. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
    If like my single stack SAs, the ramp is too steep - case support, don't you know - and should be brought down.
    I have read that the 31 deg ramp angle of a 1911 applies to all of the type but can't say for sure.
    Improper ramp geometry may be the problem. Or one of the problems. I think I'll try some different mag springs first and see what that does. Staccato Gen 3 mag springs have an upward bend in the top coil. I assume this was added to help keep the follower in a nose up attitude in the tube.

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  7. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokarev View Post
    A bit more info.

    Herron is using the 5" and not the 4.25" as I posted yesterday. He is using Atlas mags and not MBX.

    I don't know what all may have been changed but looking at the gun in the holster he is using the OEM hammer and ambi safety. The only obvious additions are what I believe is an EGW mag well and an extended screw-on mag release.

    I used my Prodigy today. We shot probably 300 rounds. I had three failures to feed. Two were early in the morning while using the 20rd DuraMags. The third was late in the afternoon with a 17rd CMI.

    One of the 20rd malfunctions was just a round stalled out on the feed ramp. Pulling the slide back and letting it go cleared it. The other two were both rounds nose dived hard and snagged on the bottom of the feed ramp. Interestingly all three malfunctions were with 147 grain JHP duty ammo. I also used some Stand 1 Armory 145 grain Chub and my own reloads that are a 147ish coated LWSC made by Acme.

    I will run the gun again the 3rd and final day with using JHP and DuraMag 17 rounders to see what happens. Granted this may not be the best venue to troubleshoot my junk.

    Tim shooting a demo with his pistol.



    Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
    Okay. So Tim's pistol is indeed using stock parts. The trigger has been tweaked to closely match the trigger in his primary which is a Nighthawk. The trigger work was done by A.J. Zito. The mag well is an EGW and the mag release button is an Ed Brown.

    Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

  8. #458
    Site Supporter JSGlock34's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    As someone who had a MIM slide stop break on a Colt Wiley Clapp at less than 3k rounds issues with MIM 1911 parts for hard use go beyond Kimber.
    This. The only failure I've experienced with a pistol that essentially deadlined the gun right there was when the MIM magazine release on an original S&W 1911 sheared in half and lost all tension. After the first shot the magazine shot right out of the grip; thinking I had improperly seated the magazine I reloaded from my belt, and as soon as I reestablished my grip, that magazine hit the floor. It was not a high round count gun.

    Sure, S&W sent me a replacement part free under warranty, but it went right in the parts bin.
    "When the phone rang, Parker was in the garage, killing a man."

  9. #459
    Well to be fair, the metallurgist said to replace smaller MIM parts with properly machined ones particularly the slide stop and ambi-safeties which i mentioned. Im paraphrasing him here: outside of hearsay, you would hard pressed to find hard data of properly made heat treated MIM sears and hammers failing with high round count guns. (to him Colt and SA do them right) No better than machined 1911 FCG parts failing with high round count guns. Are machined parts better? Absolutely, but prices increase sharply and rightly so due to the time to machine proper and precise angles whereas MIM is expensive to get into, but gives you precise parts after sintering(?) if the molds are done right time after time and pays for itself over time. Gods Gun (as he called it) is an inherently expensive design because of this and MIM was done to bring costs down. If any part be it MIM or machined is made poorly, it will fail no matter how it's made. /paraphrasing

    This all came up because I told him about the Prodigy I scored for $1000. To which he said, replace the slide stop and ambi-safety which good machined parts. I asked about replacing the sear/hammer/disconnect/strut and apparently, this whole hysteria about MIM is thanks to Bill Wilson marketing going back to machined parts after he created a great, extremely reliable 1911 for the ATF (ewww) with MIM. WC didnt bad mouth sears, just something along the lines of MIM lasts a lifetime, tool steel a lifetime and a half.

    Well that and the timber debacle.

    I dont know jack shit about 1911s, I didnt even know WC even made a 1911 with MIM so that was surprising to me, but "a lifetime and half" I have to admit is good marketing to drive premium 1911s. Either way, im never going to carry it so i plan to shoot till failure. The thread with the high round count TRPs keeping up with a Les Baer convinced me back then, I supposed I'll stick to my conviction.
    Last edited by coN; 05-31-2023 at 04:24 PM.

  10. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    As someone who had a MIM slide stop break on a Colt Wiley Clapp at less than 3k rounds issues with MIM 1911 parts for hard use go beyond Kimber.

    MIM does get a bad rap in that parts designed around the properties of MIM materials like those found in modern HK pistols or the long extractors in Sig classic P series guns are fine.

    The problem comes when you try to make parts designed and dimensioned as forgings from MIM.

    Take MIM out of the equation.

    AR15 receivers were designed and dimensioned around an aluminum forging.

    Early attempts at making polymer, AR15 receivers, which retained the original dimensions were notorious failures. Even with metal reinforcements polymer was not strong enough when substituted for aluminum in the original dimensions.

    When CAV arms re designed / re dimensioned an AR receiver for the material properties of polymer it worked fine as seen in the current KE Arms / WWSD rifles.
    My understanding is that it's mostly parts that are, like mentioned, using MIM as a substitute process and also parts that have hard 90 degree angles. Slide stops, thumb safties, the little nib on the 2-piece magazine catch. MIM parts that tend to fare well are things like hammers, struts, sears, etc. HK parts as mentioned. The analogue to S&W revolvers is that the MIM process is resoundingly successful because the stressed parts are all similar in shape to HK parts and how they take any stress/impact. Again, hammers being the obvious example. But also triggers, rebounds, cylinder stops, etc. The parts that have complex geometry like the bolt either don't have to deal with any real shock load or are still made out of forged steel and whittled down by hand or CNC.

    I'm curious as to how true that is, generally. I wonder if the "no mim in a 1911" bit could more nuanced into which specific parts of a 1911 aren't suitable to the MIM process. Some obviously aren't. But some do fine. It isn't necessary for the gun to be stuffed full of parts machined from billet unicorn horn... but where MIM isn't and is appropriate in a 1911 should be a solvable problem in 2023.

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