RFI: Policy, Transition training, and Qualification CoF for RDS pistols

[HCM]

Bumping to the top.

I am mandated to go to @AsianJedi's course next year. And set up an RDS course for the agency that will meet state approval, and the appropriate SOPs for the department.

I would appreciate receiving any SOPs and training curricula I can get my hands on for documented references.

I just came back from court and met up with a DWI guy I have worked with before and commented on his Aimpoint Acro P-2 that he secured in the gun room of the courthouse. He didn't know that the mailbox on top of his slide was an Acro. And he bitched about finding the dot or looking at his irons. Thinking the biggest agency in the state doesn't have the answer...and thus will not be a good resource.

pat

You’re in good hands with @AsianJedi

Recently, there’s been some debate about the efficacy his method of presenting the dot vs a pure index.

The individual raising these concerns comes from a competition background and has students who dry fire regularly. while he is technically correct, that an index is faster and more efficient, and that one can develop a reliable and repeatable index presentation with a few weeks of dry fire, in my experience, that is not a realistic answer for most cops.

Most cops are not gun people and getting them to dry fire once they’ve made it through the Academy is usually an exercise in frustration.

My experience was my people who are “into shooting” and/ or had a high level of proficiency already had a good index with irons and had no issues finding / presenting the dot. With these people, we simply did not fix what was not broken.

For those who do have trouble finding the dot and usually have never realized how much they are using their peripheral vision to present irons on target, @AsainJedi’s techniques are consistent. easily absorbed and far superior to using the irons to find the dot which is what many in this group would otherwise default to.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I know a guy ... https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....tain-Solutions

[DaBigBR]

You’re in good hands with @AsianJedi

Recently, there’s been some debate about the efficacy his method of presenting the dot vs a pure index.

The individual raising these concerns comes from a competition background and has students who dry fire regularly. while he is technically correct, that an index is faster and more efficient, and that one can develop a reliable and repeatable index presentation with a few weeks of dry fire, in my experience, that is not a realistic answer for most cops.

Most cops are not gun people and getting them to dry fire once they’ve made it through the Academy is usually an exercise in frustration.

My experience was my people who are “into shooting” and/ or had a high level of proficiency already had a good index with irons and had no issues finding / presenting the dot. With these people, we simply did not fix what was not broken.

For those who do have trouble finding the dot and usually have never realized how much they are using their peripheral vision to present irons on target, @AsainJedi’s techniques are consistent. easily absorbed and far superior to using the irons to find the dot which is what many in this group would otherwise default to.

He's also very clear about having a way and not the way. He has also been teaching more of an escalator style draw as an option and explaining his perceived plusses and minuses of each method.

I agree that UNM1136 will be in good hands.

[UNM1136]

I know a guy ... https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....tain-Solutions

Thanks, man!

pat

[jnc36rcpd]

Progressive Force Concepts is doing a two day red dot sight class at the Crucible in a few weeks. Has anyone attended and, if so, what's your opinion? Thanks and be safe.

[UNM1136]

Bumping to the top.

I am mandated to go to @AsianJedi's course next year. And set up an RDS course for the agency that will meet state approval, and the appropriate SOPs for the department.

I would appreciate receiving any SOPs and training curricula I can get my hands on for documented references.

I just came back from court and met up with a DWI guy I have worked with before and commented on his Aimpoint Acro P-2 that he secured in the gun room of the courthouse. He didn't know that the mailbox on top of his slide was an Acro. And he bitched about finding the dot or looking at his irons. Thinking the biggest agency in the state doesn't have the answer...and thus will not be a good resource.

pat

Bumping again for anyone wishing to share. Once we get our course and SOPs done I will make them available.

pat

[DMF13]

I just came back from court and met up with a DWI guy I have worked with before and commented on his Aimpoint Acro P-2 that he secured in the gun room of the courthouse. He didn't know that the mailbox on top of his slide was an Acro. And he bitched about finding the dot or looking at his irons. Thinking the biggest agency in the state doesn't have the answer...and thus will not be a good resource.

Maybe the training he received wasn't good, but it might also be a case of an old dog refusing to learn new tricks, despite good training being offered. I've seen a lot of that over the years, and not just with firearms.

I'm an advocate for PMOs at my agency, although we still haven't transitioned. However, when we do get the optics, I think new hires should get them at the academy, and those who are already in the field should get a choice. Most of the stubborn folks won't put in a real effort to learn something new, so just let them keep their irons, and eventually, albeit over many years, they will all retire.

[UNM1136]

Maybe the training he received wasn't good, but it might also be a case of an old dog refusing to learn new tricks, despite good training being offered. I've seen a lot of that over the years, and not just with firearms.

I'm an advocate for PMOs at my agency, although we still haven't transitioned. However, when we do get the optics, I think new hires should get them at the academy, and those who are already in the field should get a choice. Most of the stubborn folks won't put in a real effort to learn something new, so just let them keep their irons, and eventually, albeit over many years, they will all retire.

Agreed. One of my sergeants is a Master Instructor. He hates the idea. Talking with him last night the largest agency in the state and his former agency seem to be teaching a dot focus, like using irons. Definitely old dogs-new tricks, but the thing is, from a canine trainer, you absolutely can teach old dog new tricks, if you know how to train dogs... The largest agency in the state is no longer teaching irons in the academy.

Master Instructor understands that rifle irons and rifle optics are zeroed and used differently. Teaches both and issues both. Yet seems to believe PMOs (thanks for the term @SoCalDep) need to be taught as though they were irons...

pat

[DMF13]

Definitely old dogs-new tricks, but the thing is, from a canine trainer, you absolutely can teach old dog new tricks, if you know how to train dogs... The largest agency in the state is no longer teaching irons in the academy.

Well it's not a perfect analogy. Also, I can't put our folks on a "toy reward," or "food reward," plan, where they only get what they want, by doing what I want them to do!

Master Instructor understands that rifle irons and rifle optics are zeroed and used differently. Teaches both and issues both. Yet seems to believe PMOs (thanks for the term @SoCalDep) need to be taught as though they were irons...

pat

I've encountered many people that have the same attitude. When I suggest occluding the front of the PMO (briefly in training), to reinforce the concept of 'target focus," some of them react like I had just suggested eating dog crap for lunch. Often they are the same people who want a very tiny dot, "for precision at long ranges," and claim a 5 or 6MOA dot is "way too big, to shoot accurately, but won't acknowledge that the front sight of their current irons is roughly 10-12 MOA wide, and they are okay shooting that at "long ranges."

[UNM1136]

Well it's not a perfect analogy. Also, I can't put our folks on a "toy reward," or "food reward," plan, where they only get what they want, by doing what I want them to do!

I've encountered many people that have the same attitude. When I suggest occluding the front of the PMO (briefly in training), to reinforce the concept of 'target focus," some of them react like I had just suggested eating dog crap for lunch. Often they are the same people who want a very tiny dot, "for precision at long ranges," and claim a 5 or 6MOA dot is "way too big, to shoot accurately, but won't acknowledge that the front sight of their current irons is roughly 10-12 MOA wide, and they are okay shooting that at "long ranges."

Ummm...yep....

pat