RFI: Policy, Transition training, and Qualification CoF for RDS pistols

[1Rangemaster]

I thought that instead of making a very similar topic, I would just bump this to the top. We are going to RMR's on top of G17's from our current stock G22's next year. I am being tasked with working on an 8 hour transition class. I would really appreciate anybody that could send me a POI or outline if they have one already made up.

Respectfully, @Whiskey, you should really try for some instruction yourself to see what's involved. Bring up the matter of liability-that sometimes works. If you're going to Glocks, that company offers dot specific training. Trijicon used to offer some-don't know if they do now.
I would also respectfully suggest looking (and heeding) @SoCalDep posts for mounting. He has done the community a service with his sight mounting procedure.
An oversimplification, but the transition is going to mostly be what you'd do going to a new weapon, except target focus, a lot of presentations/draws to get the new optic index and some instruction on operator responsibility. @HCM had a good point in that they instruct their personnel to daily draw to a ready, check function and zero(off the buis), weapon status and secure for the shift.
Very best of luck to you

Edit to add: you can sign up for Aimpoint training tips on their site. The ACRO is different-two lenses, enclosed-but the principles are basically the same. Their Training Dir. advocates a lot of dry practice, and I think most all here would agree.

[AMC]

I thought that instead of making a very similar topic, I would just bump this to the top. We are going to RMR's on top of G17's from our current stock G22's next year. I am being tasked with working on an 8 hour transition class. I would really appreciate anybody that could send me a POI or outline if they have one already made up.

With respect, and I know a bunch of agencies are handling this topic this way, an 8 hour transition course is simply not enough to acclimate shooters to using a pistol-mounted-optic at speed, under stress. The PMO is a big technology boost, can assist aged-eye shooters, and allows better success with target focused shooting for most people. But you have to put in the work. I have seen the results of 8 hour transition courses by several agencies in my state. Sure....they can pass a qual course. But they could do that without the dot. Put any of those shooters on a fast-paced exercise involving targets at various angles and distances, especially with movement involved, and their skills will fall apart. They will lose the dot on transitions and from the holster at speed. The administrative desire to purchase skill by buying new equipment rather than investing in your employees with time is something we as instructors have to recognize and fight against tooth-and-nail.

I would also echo 1Rangemaster, in that you need to get training yourself (if you haven't already done so) before instructing others on this topic. Believe me, even if you've been shooting a dot, you don't know what you don't know about teaching it. Sig Sauer Academy has an excellent PMO Instructor Course (no they don't care what gun you shoot), as does Mike Pannone of CTT Solutions, Scott Jedlinski of Modern Samurai Project, and Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics. Your own state may even have a POST approved version (we have a few in California now).

[1Rangemaster]

I've be reading and speaking with some "ivory tower"(university) types, and there's an argument/suggestion for short sessions over time for true retention of skill(s). This has something to do with recency of training and how the human brain works. A short-2 to a few hours-with one or a few skills introduced, e.g., draw from secured holster, over days at medicated better retention. @GJM has written of this related to flying whirlybirds and jets. So, a program could be a number of dry practice sessions over days finishing with live fire confirmation.
Now, this flies in the face of all that is holy in traditional firearms instruction: one to several weeks, immersion, regimented, etc. @John Hearne probably has a good deal to say about this also. In my recent personal experience, I've seen noticeable positive results.
All this may be of no help to you, @Whiskey, except to include in your plan follow along dry practice (please).
And again, get yourself some instruction and training if at all possible...

[jlw]

What I am seeing is cops going through a 2-day transition class, and at the end of the second day they shoot a qual course. The scores are higher than their average, and they pronounce the PMS as the greatest thing ever.

Weeks or months later, they come back to the range and struggle because they have done nothing in the interim.

Mark Fricke, a name you all should know if you don’t, posits that scores with PMOs initially rise due to the practice during the transition course and not due to the optic itself. He says that the same thing happened during the revolver to semi-auto transition phase.

There’s no magic number for the hours of a transition course.

Outside of the mounting and maintenance issues and a few PMO specific techniques, a PMO shooting course is no different than an iron sighted shooting course.

The initial transition needs to be followed up with frequent training sessions… just like any other firearms training.

[HCM]

What I am seeing is cops going through a 2-day transition class, and at the end of the second day they shoot a qual course. The scores are higher than their average, and they pronounce the PMS as the greatest thing ever.

Weeks or months later, they come back to the range and struggle because they have done nothing in the interim.

Mark Fricke, a name you all should know if you don’t, posits that scores with PMOs initially rise due to the practice during the transition course and not due to the optic itself. He says that the same thing happened during the revolver to semi-auto transition phase.

There’s no magic number for the hours of a transition course.

Outside of the mounting and maintenance issues and a few PMO specific techniques, a PMO shooting course is no different than an iron sighted shooting course.

The initial transition needs to be followed up with frequent training sessions… just like any other firearms training.

I was expecting to see the drop in scores you mentioned on subsequent qualifications but it has not worked out that way. We’ve seen seen some people with a slight drop and others continuing to perform at a high level.

I believe the fact that we shoot quarterly contributes to that. If we did not have that frequency/recency I could see it being more of an issue.

Sample of 300 shooters, now 2 quarters beyond a 16 hour transition course.

[jlw]

I was expecting to see the drop in scores you mentioned on subsequent qualifications but it has not worked out that way. We’ve seen seen some people with a slight drop and others continuing to perform at a high level.

I believe the fact that we shoot quarterly contributes to that. If we did not have that frequency/recency I could see it being more of an issue.

Sample of 300 shooters, now 2 quarters beyond a 16 hour transition course.

Earlier this year, we had a deputy who isn't a "good" shooter but one who typically doesn't have trouble qualifying attend a PMO transition course on 2/16/22. He shot his all time best qual score (low/mid 90s) at that class. On 3/2/22, he failed a qual. His issue was going over time due to not being able to find the dot.

The above is just one example, but I have noted fall off in those that aren't keeping recent.

[HCM]

Earlier this year, we had a deputy who isn't a "good" shooter but one who typically doesn't have trouble qualifying attend a PMO transition course on 2/16/22. He shot his all time best qual score (low/mid 90s) at that class. On 3/2/22, he failed a qual. His issue was going over time due to not being able to find the dot.

The above is just one example, but I have noted fall off in those that aren't keeping recent.

We're not seeing that. It makes me wonder about the PMO transition course.

We've seen the majority of shooters who normally were in the 70% to 80% range with irons staying at or slightly above 90%. Most were 95% or > at the end of transition but seem to be retaining enough to be useful.

We've had no DNQs this quarter with RDS shooters using RDS. What we have seen is shooters with RDS duty guns shooting 90% or > with their duty gun then struggling with their iron sighted off duty / BUG guns.

We have two shooters that were previously "frequent flyers" for DNQ/Remedial training with Irons who shot their personal best / first perfect scores at the end of PMO transition. I've been keeping an eye on them as "canaries in the coal mine" as neither is a hobby shooter but both are still shooting at 95% or >.

We do allow officers to opt out of the RDS but several of the opt outs are now asking to go RDS based on the results they're seeing in their peers.

[jnc36rcpd]

The summer 2022 issue of "The Tactical Edge" has an excellent article by Timothy Lee entitled "Desirable Difficulties in Training Improve Skill Retention". It was reprinted in the Force Science newsletter and is available on their website. Lee argues that somewhat counter-intuitive practices enhance skill retention. "Spacing" the training rather than delivering it in a singular block is the first desirable difficulty he lists.

There is some great advice in this thread. I suspect quarterly qualifications in HCM's department have some aspects of Lee's difficulties. While qualification isn't training, I think officers will remember their techniques if they know they'll be tested in three months versus six or twelve months. Testing later rather than sooner is also suggested. I think that three month intervals provide that testing. Undoubtedly, the recommended daily practice also helps with skill retention.

I'd also recommend you and/or another instructor attend an RDS class before implementing the program. In addition to the ones suggested, I believe SigSauer and the Texas Tactical Police Officers Association offer RDS classes.

I attended the same four hour RDS class by Trijicon at different conferences. The classes showed me the value of the RDS, but I doubt I'll carry my RMR-equipped Glock 45 until I attend a more intensive class. As suggested, I do OK on the square range, but real world is another story.

[HCM]

The summer 2022 issue of "The Tactical Edge" has an excellent article by Timothy Lee entitled "Desirable Difficulties in Training Improve Skill Retention". It was reprinted in the Force Science newsletter and is available on their website. Lee argues that somewhat counter-intuitive practices enhance skill retention. "Spacing" the training rather than delivering it in a singular block is the first desirable difficulty he lists.

There is some great advice in this thread. I suspect quarterly qualifications in HCM's department have some aspects of Lee's difficulties. While qualification isn't training, I think officers will remember their techniques if they know they'll be tested in three months versus six or twelve months. Testing later rather than sooner is also suggested. I think that three month intervals provide that testing. Undoubtedly, the recommended daily practice also helps with skill retention.

I'd also recommend you and/or another instructor attend an RDS class before implementing the program. In addition to the ones suggested, I believe SigSauer and the Texas Tactical Police Officers Association offer RDS classes.

I attended the same four hour RDS class by Trijicon at different conferences. The classes showed me the value of the RDS, but I doubt I'll carry my RMR-equipped Glock 45 until I attend a more intensive class. As suggested, I do OK on the square range, but real world is another story.

Since the OP is apparently in PA, I’ll second the recommendation for the current version of the SIG Academy RDS classes and suggest the Ohio Tactical Officers Association as a potential source of training.

[Whiskey]

I should have said that I went to a 3 day Pistol RDS Instructor course. Unfortunately, I can't fight the time allotted to bring the transition program to our in-service. The instructor for the course also said 16 hours and the guy who is telling me 8 hours was in that class, so I have to make do. We do offer monthly range sessions (some live, some on a simulator) and we have good availability for people to get time on the range to dry fire with an instructor present.