Stoeger suspended from USPSA

[Cory]

Do you guys that are defending him actually believe that Ben cares about the wellbeing of USPSA as an org?

Im a former USPSA member and big time nobody.

Yeah, I think he cares about the well being of the organization. He's been in USPSA for a long time, has multiple national titles, more than one USPSA centric business. He writes books about the topic, teaches classes on the topic, and has a podcast about the topic. He may be an ass sometimes but I think he definitely cares. And I dont think it's just a financial investment type of care either. The sport is an enourmous part of the guys life.

I think the BOD actions lately are driving all the other stuff. Mistakes in judgement on both sides but in my mind the BOD holds far more blame than anyone.

[45dotACP]

I guess the more pertinent question is if the BOD cares about the wellbeing of USPSA as an org.

Likely Ben will continue doing Ben. Teaching shooting, writing books, trolling dudes.

But USPSA ought to be asked why they were willing to take such a gamble with the whole Cameo thing and risk getting their members either cited or arrested.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

We can’t even get that in our government, so I’m not expecting it in our sport.

Would be nice, but so would the ammo fairy putting cartridges under my pillow at night.

Arguably, it should be easier to affect change in a smaller organization and get something we want. I sort of feel we set up a fallacy here by comparing it to the Govt.

The USPSA isn't a governmental entity, but is the property of the members (share holders) not the board of directors. And it's quite possible overall to change it for the better.

The question is whether some folks will go along with what is needed to make those changes.

I guess the more pertinent question is if the BOD cares about the wellbeing of USPSA as an org.

B-I-N-G-O - This is the pertinent question.

___

FWIW, I have thoughts, but they're fairly unkind towards the current leadership of USPSA. My personal opinion - and tactic - would be to report the various BOD members who have clearly violated federal laws for those violations. Up to and including turning over the various documents for JM's alleged illegal selling of firearms for profit to the ATF.

I would petition the IRS to investigate the 503(c) status of the org.

Personally, if I were Derek, this is what I would do*. I would drop the nuke on them and fuck 'em. In doing so, it the org were dissolved, so be it.

Here's the shit kicker folks can't seem to get to - if USPSA ceased to exist only matches at certain levels cease to exist. Beyond that, Club Level (where most of the participation is occurring) will still occur. Eventually, someone will come along with something new and positive. But in the meantime you leave a lasting impression on people about what happens when you throw stones from your glass house.

*I've said as much to Derek in passing as well.

[JCN]

Arguably, it should be easier to affect change in a smaller organization and get something we want. I sort of feel we set up a fallacy here by comparing it to the Govt.

The USPSA isn't a governmental entity, but is the property of the members (share holders) not the board of directors. And it's quite possible overall to change it for the better.

The question is whether some folks will go along with what is needed to make those changes.

B-I-N-G-O - This is the pertinent question.
___

FWIW, I have thoughts, but they're fairly unkind towards the current leadership of USPSA. My personal opinion - and tactic - would be to report the various BOD members who have clearly violated federal laws for those violations. Up to and including turning over the various documents for JM's alleged illegal selling of firearms for profit to the ATF.

I would petition the IRS to investigate the 503(c) status of the org.

Personally, if I were Derek, this is what I would do*. I would drop the nuke on them and fuck 'em. In doing so, it the org were dissolved, so be it.

Here's the shit kicker folks can't seem to get to - if USPSA ceased to exist only matches at certain levels cease to exist. Beyond that, Club Level (where most of the participation is occurring) will still occur. Eventually, someone will come along with something new and positive. But in the meantime you leave a lasting impression on people about what happens when you throw stones from your glass house.

*I've said as much to Derek in passing as well.

I do disagree and we don’t know what the reality is because it’s hypothetical musing.

I think it’s HARDER to make the changes in a volunteer activity because there’s no glory or financial incentive to attract excellent candidates.

The government of the USA is also like the property of the people in theory.

For a sport, I don’t know that it really belongs to the members either.

Does MLB belong to the fans? That’s a terrible analogy though.

I just don’t know that there’s a real model we can compare it to.

SCCA is probably the closest thing.

Completely disagree with what happens if USPSA dissolves. The attraction to the sport for me is national standard and rules language. It’s the reason why I have zero interest in all the random 3 gun clubs and random outlaw steel matches.

There’s a local club that decided to run outlaw instead of USPSA and I am not motivated to go there either.

If USPSA disbands, then local matches will start drifting to random rulesets and that’s not attractive to me.

I recently started Steel Challenge and the only draw of that to me is the national database.

[JCS]

Arguably, it should be easier to affect change in a smaller organization and get something we want. I sort of feel we set up a fallacy here by comparing it to the Govt.

The USPSA isn't a governmental entity, but is the property of the members (share holders) not the board of directors. And it's quite possible overall to change it for the better.

The question is whether some folks will go along with what is needed to make those changes.



B-I-N-G-O - This is the pertinent question.

___

FWIW, I have thoughts, but they're fairly unkind towards the current leadership of USPSA. My personal opinion - and tactic - would be to report the various BOD members who have clearly violated federal laws for those violations. Up to and including turning over the various documents for JM's alleged illegal selling of firearms for profit to the ATF.

I would petition the IRS to investigate the 503(c) status of the org.

Personally, if I were Derek, this is what I would do*. I would drop the nuke on them and fuck 'em. In doing so, it the org were dissolved, so be it.

Here's the shit kicker folks can't seem to get to - if USPSA ceased to exist only matches at certain levels cease to exist. Beyond that, Club Level (where most of the participation is occurring) will still occur. Eventually, someone will come along with something new and positive. But in the meantime you leave a lasting impression on people about what happens when you throw stones from your glass house.

*I've said as much to Derek in passing as well.

I disagree about participation at locals if uspsa dissolved. I wouldn’t shoot matches anymore. The appeal for me is knowing not just how I stack up locally but nationally. Uspsa classification system isn't perfect but it gives someone in small town Oklahoma a chance to compare to the best in the sport.

[Clusterfrack]

Do you guys that are defending him actually believe that Ben cares about the wellbeing of USPSA as an org?

I think he cares about the wellbeing of USPSA as a sport.

[RevolverRob]

If you care about your national ranking - how do you square the fact that PSI has found consistent issues of cheating in Classifiers?

In other words - whatever your standing is - it cannot be reliable or consistent as long as cheating is occurring.

Fact of the matter is if you want level rules and national standards, professional accountability has to be issue #1. If you don't have that and don't think you can get that - then your national standing and comparisons mean zilch.

USPSA has demonstrated that they are corrupt and have ethical issues. To be honest, I'd take your classifier standings against anyone who you didn't see shoot their classifiers with an absolutely grain of salt.

[JCN]

I think he cares about the wellbeing of USPSA as a sport.

But only as a vehicle that he can ride in / on (is my assumption).

That’s a parasitic kind of relationship. Like wanting a host to live so you can suck the blood.

I would be super interested in him pivoting to IDPA as a sport.

I think he could make the transition.

He’d have to be a little less antagonist though. I don’t see Joyce putting up with much shit.

[JCN]

If you care about your national ranking - how do you square the fact that PSI has found consistent issues of cheating in Classifiers?

In other words - whatever your standing is - it cannot be reliable or consistent as long as cheating is occurring.

Fact of the matter is if you want level rules and national standards, professional accountability has to be issue #1. If you don't have that and don't think you can get that - then your national standing and comparisons mean zilch.

USPSA has demonstrated that they are corrupt and have ethical issues. To be honest, I'd take your classifier standings against anyone who you didn't see shoot their classifiers with an absolutely grain of salt.

That’s hyperbole, my friend.

Again, Steel Challenge is under the USPSA umbrella but they run their classifier standard a little differently.

There are alternatives.

Check this out: for steel challenge, instead of adjusting the peak / Hundo time for THE BEST in the world, they adjust it for the average GM at the world shoot.

That’s actually kind of an awesome way of doing it that filters out the extreme Hail Mary runs.

Even a change like that to the adjustment of Hundo time for standard USPSA can negate the impact of cheaters.

[JCS]

If you care about your national ranking - how do you square the fact that PSI has found consistent issues of cheating in Classifiers?

In other words - whatever your standing is - it cannot be reliable or consistent as long as cheating is occurring.

Fact of the matter is if you want level rules and national standards, professional accountability has to be issue #1. If you don't have that and don't think you can get that - then your national standing and comparisons mean zilch.

USPSA has demonstrated that they are corrupt and have ethical issues. To be honest, I'd take your classifier standings against anyone who you didn't see shoot their classifiers with an absolutely grain of salt.

Uspsa board is corrupt or the members are corrupt?

I’m sure there are cheaters. But it’s isolated to individuals or a single club. I don’t believe it’s rampant enough that it’s ruined the classifier scores.