Stoeger suspended from USPSA

[45dotACP]

@45dotACP

I don’t know the other BOD guys, but our AD is not a chest thumper and does care about other people’s feelings.

He also doesn’t appreciate loudmouths.

If you apply “sportsmanship” standards to behavior, the personal insults that Stoeger has lobbed about would get him suspended in a lot of other organizations.

@Clusterfrack can you imagine if a PGA Tour Pro repeatedly called the staff fucking idiots at press conferences and social media? I can’t imagine they wouldn’t face sanctions. Same thing with WTA.

Many “national sports” require a certain standard of decorum from their athletes. It’s not the criticism that’s the issue, it’s the lack of tact that is a suspension magnet.

Standards of decorum and sportsmanship tend to frown upon cheating in professional sports leagues yet it seems a lack of follow up on accusations of cheating is also pertinent to this whole shit show.

Then again pro sports leagues do seem to be awfully lax about sanctions for domestic violence accusations in many professional sports IIRC so maybe USPSA is on to something there when the domestic violence accusations leveled against a board member seem to get absolutely zero attention. (/sarc)


Also, @JCN I respectfully disagree with the notion that if you're not a part of the solution then you're somehow a part of the problem or should just keep your mouth shut.

I can gripe and moan all I want about UFC fighters not being fairly treated without working for the boxing commission can I not?

If there was an impartial source of journalism about shooting sports I bet they'd be eating this story up.



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[JCN]

Also, @JCN I respectfully disagree with the notion that if you're not a part of the solution then you're somehow a part of the problem or should just keep your mouth shut.

Just to clarify, I’m not advocating keeping mouths shut or not criticizing.

Look at my mock Stoeger appeal letter. I included that he would / should continue to criticize…

I’m not saying keep the mouth shut or don’t criticize.

I’m saying “you all fucking suck and should leave the sport, idiot board” is not helpful lol.

I’m not calling for board to be terminated. I also wasn’t on the “Foley needs to go!” train.

I would not be opposed to mandatory board leadership training courses and external HR consultation.

Again going back to “Red Circle” there were well meaning instructors who couldn’t lead or teach effectively. One of the things they revamped the modern curriculum to include was instructor training for everyone.

Help the board lead better with better tools rather than “hope” the next set of untrained leaders will do a better job.

There’s a role for training and education here and my criticism of the Foley firing was that it didn’t solve the problem (which we are seeing now). Similarly, replacing this board (IMO) also won’t solve the problem without specific training for new BOD.

[JCN]

Saying “you fucking suck and need to go” belittles the commitment and sacrifices a lot of the AD type people have given for years.

Offering to help them get better training at their current position would be a more respectful and durable solution.

[45dotACP]

Saying “you fucking suck and need to go” belittles the commitment and sacrifices a lot of the AD type people have given for years.

Offering to help them get better training at their current position would be a more respectful and durable solution.

This I agree with.

The two sides of the argument seem to be either "Ben's an asshole but he's right." Or "Ben's right, but he's an asshole."

Neither seem to help the fact that there don't seem to be particularly robust mechanisms of accountability or organizational standards for the people running one of the most popular sport shooting organizations in the country.

Adjudication of unprofessional conduct, cheating allegations, misappropriation of funds or just flat out stupid ideas (like holding a race gun nationals competition in a ban state) needs to be something that's done with transparency and professionalism. Not something you do with your shooting buddies

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[Rocky Racoon]

F1 was an international sport but Bernie Ecclestone was notoriously protective of the brand and intolerant of criticism.

As you continue to defend USPSA (and knowing you I’m sure you will keep going and going), you might want to rethink using Bernie as an example. He was recently charged with tax fraud, to go along with all the other, um, questionable things he’s done and said over the years.

[Rocky Racoon]

perhaps I'm mis-remembering, but didn't Ben help get Foley elected to begin with? I seem to recall Foley being the candidate of choice on Ben's podcast, and Foley coming on and participating in the show?

I admit to not following the drama day-to-day, but I guess that all went to shit at some point?

I think you’re right. And it went to shit when Foley kept stepping on his crank.

But not sure how it’s relevant. Where are you going with this, counselor? To me that would show he’s not bought off by friendship. He sees messed up stuff, he calls it out regardless of whether the messed up person and he were “buddies” or appeared to be.

You don’t like Ben. We get it.

[Rocky Racoon]

Saying “you fucking suck and need to go” belittles the commitment and sacrifices a lot of the AD type people have given for years.

Offering to help them get better training at their current position would be a more respectful and durable solution.

In what world would have the USPSA director of events in question have accepted an offer from Ben (huh?) to get training on not being unethical (the ammo thing) and basic common sense (holding Nats in a state where competitors would have to break the law to attend, and then sign an affidavit saying they weren’t breaking the law)?

[rob_s]

You don’t like Ben. We get it.

And you’re swinging from his nut hairs, we get it.

I “like” Ben fine. Never met the guy. Listened to his old podcast for quite a while, and would like to take a class from him one day.

I can separate that from the drama.

And it doesn’t change the fact that running his mouth, the way that he did, for as long as he did, was bound to catch up with him. And for what?

[JCN]

As you continue to defend USPSA (and knowing you I’m sure you will keep going and going), you might want to rethink using Bernie as an example. He was recently charged with tax fraud, to go along with all the other, um, questionable things he’s done and said over the years.

Lol, you think I’m defending USPSA.

I’m saying that before throwing the baby out with the bath water, might want to make sure there is a replacement baby.

Foley was terrible! Replace him!

Sherwyn is terrible! Replace him!

Yee-Min is terrible! Replace him!

See where I’m going with this?

I think Bernie is a megalomaniac. Did you think I was holding that up as a model of behavior?

It was an example of the kinds of personalities that gravitate to power and replacing them isn’t necessarily going to make it better.

[JCN]

In what world would have the USPSA director of events in question have accepted an offer from Ben (huh?) to get training on not being unethical (the ammo thing) and basic common sense (holding Nats in a state where competitors would have to break the law to attend, and then sign an affidavit saying they weren’t breaking the law)?

Your reading comprehension is off.

I’m not recommending Ben give training.

I’m not condoning USPSA behavior but my solution would be to train rather than replace because I don’t know that the replacement would be better.

I said the same thing about Foley. I’ll say the same about Sherwyn. And in a year I’ll say the same thing about Yee-Min.