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Thread: Stoeger suspended from USPSA

  1. #191
    Site Supporter JRV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bofe954 View Post
    Is that bad? I always figured that kind of stuff got sold unless the manufacturer made them give it back.
    Well, as dumb it is, it’s not legal to sell large volumes of guns and ammo without a federal license. Especially where the guns sold were not acquired for the personal use of the seller in the first instance.

    Also, the bigger problem is—you’d assume—promo stuff that’s not put back into T&E circulation would end up on a prize table or raffle for the benefit of the org.

    Not sold on a local gun forum under some guy’s personal account.
    Whenever you're sad, just remember: every day is one day closer to your next plate of nachos.

  2. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by JRV View Post
    Well, as dumb it is, it’s not legal to sell large volumes of guns and ammo without a federal license. Especially where the guns sold were not acquired for the personal use of the seller in the first instance.

    Also, the bigger problem is—you’d assume—promo stuff that’s not put back into T&E circulation would end up on a prize table or raffle for the benefit of the org.

    Not sold on a local gun forum under some guy’s personal account.
    I guess I'd have to see the list of stuff and have someone explain to me why the ATF cared, that's kind of why I asked. I know about straw purchases, and I know you aren't supposed to buy firearms expressly to resell without a license.

    I know a guy can buy a pistol, shoot it for a youtube video, blog post, magazine article, pistolforum post, whatever and sell it if they don't want to keep it. I imagine if you were were some kind of influencer a company might give you a firearm to review. I don't know why you couldn't sell it, if it had been transferred to you.

    I could be wrong, I'm not a lawyer or an ATF agent. That's why I asked.

    As far as the prize tables go, you have a point. Would be a PITA to get a firearm on a prize table outside Indiana. Not sure how much used stuff manufacturers really want on prize tables, either. Prize tables are marketing like anything else, I wouldn't want someone to beat the piss out of an optic I made, then it ends up on a prize table and the winner thinks my product is junk. Again, I don't know the details of what he had.

    It just reminds me a little of a plumber recycling copper from pipes he had to replace on a job, or a cop that gets a free lunch or something every day. Ethical? Maybe not, do I give a shit? Not really. Should they all get exposed on the internet? I guess that's America now and they should know better.

    18K isn't nothing, and I'm not really trying to defend Martens, he actually irritated me in the past about a club I briefly ran, and no longer run, in small part due to him and USPSA, but mostly just because I'm busy.

    Some of this thread, and some of this stuff just seems a little blown out of proportion and perhaps out of context. It may be because tiny parts of it are being posted here from instagram.

  3. #193
    Torx Hater RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRV View Post
    If there is a "summary" available in text format alone:

    PSI has extensive documentation of DME personally selling cover story guns, promo guns, promo optics following factory tours, promo ammo, etc. on an Indiana gun forum.

    The total amount of goods sold was at least $18,000 at the last count.

    Following PSI's first post on Instagram, DME edited all the forum posts to cover his tracks. PSI or someone else tipped off the forum moderators, who have since reversed all the edits done by DME's account.
    This is the current summary of the DME situation.

    FYI PSI has said he will release a Medium post on this soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by bofe954 View Post
    Is that bad? I always figured that kind of stuff got sold unless the manufacturer made them give it back.
    Often what manufacturers do is offer T&E guns to the reviewer at or near cost. As I understand it, at least some of the firearms in this situation were purchased in this fashion and subsequently resold shortly thereafter.

    Quote Originally Posted by bofe954 View Post
    I guess I'd have to see the list of stuff and have someone explain to me why the ATF cared, that's kind of why I asked. I know about straw purchases, and I know you aren't supposed to buy firearms expressly to resell without a license.

    I know a guy can buy a pistol, shoot it for a youtube video, blog post, magazine article, pistolforum post, whatever and sell it if they don't want to keep it. I imagine if you were were some kind of influencer a company might give you a firearm to review. I don't know why you couldn't sell it, if it had been transferred to you.

    I could be wrong, I'm not a lawyer or an ATF agent. That's why I asked.
    The ATF will look at the pattern and process of purchasing and reselling firearms. If there is a pattern where firearms are purchased at a low(er) than market cost and subsequently resold for a profit, in a short turn around time, then the ATF could determine the individual in question was acting as an unlicensed dealer.

    In this particular case, PSI has documented that DME sold guns that were reviewed/used for the USPSA Magazine shortly after the magazine feature on that firearm was released and this was done multiple times. If those weapons were purchased by DME at cost and subsequently resold for profit, in particular after using the USPSA Magazine to promote the weapon in question - then that may well fit the definition of unlicensed dealer. IANAL - but that stinks like shit to me and the extensive number of guns sold seems to further indicate that this was an ongoing behavior.

    There is a separate alleged behavior where DME may have given his USPSA business card to people at matches and told them to contact him for his 'inventory'. That is expressly called at as behavior by the ATF that qualifies as an unlicensed dealer in their pamphlet, "Do I need a Firearms License?" - https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

    The (re)sale of loaded ammunition, optics, accessories, etc. is not directly regulated by the ATF (well in as much as the GCA dictates that individuals under 18/21 cannot buy certain types of ammunition, but an FFL is not needed to sell loaded ammunition). These sales could be regulated by state of Indiana and certainly would need to be reported to the IRS. The acquisition of promo items and resale of them is a shady practice. It is unclear if DME used his position of influence at USPSA to acquire these items for the express purpose of resale or merely sold them after the fact. Determining that motive is potentially for a jury to decide if it comes to that.

    $18,000+ is a substantial number for most folks. That many of those dollars were generated through the sale of guns regulated by Federal law makes this potentially a very serious legal issue.

    The complicity of the Board in these dealings will have to be further investigated.
    Last edited by RevolverRob; 08-16-2022 at 12:25 PM.
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  4. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by bofe954 View Post
    Is that bad? I always figured that kind of stuff got sold unless the manufacturer made them give it back.
    There's a number of issues at play here. First is the unreported income to the IRS; $18,000 is a lot of money and would substantially increase someone's tax burden. I got a letter from the IRS about back taxes because I forgot to declare 4k in freelance income one year, so best believe if they knew about 18,000 bucks they'd want to go after it.

    On the subject of selling guns/optics that were provided for T&E (testing and evaluation) to USPSA/DME, there are two issues we need to look at. The first, as discussed, is whether or not he's "engaged in the business" of selling firearms without a license. As other people have pointed out, ATF would look at the pattern of acquisitions and sales and make a determination as to whether or not he was "engaged in the business." It's one of those things where there's a lot of wiggle room, because people sell guns a lot, and even large volumes of guns, without being engaged in the business.

    The second is the ethical/industry issue. If you're getting guns and writer's pricing/for free and then immediately flipping them, the industry at large regards that as "not cool." It's one thing to get a gun for a review, buy it at a discount, and then like 2 years later go "oh man I haven't shot that in forever, I'll toss it on Gunbroker" and it's another thing entirely to intentionally flip guns that you got at a deep discount.
    I shot the PX4 before it was cool.

  5. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by jetfire View Post
    The second is the ethical/industry issue. If you're getting guns and writer's pricing/for free and then immediately flipping them, the industry at large regards that as "not cool." It's one thing to get a gun for a review, buy it at a discount, and then like 2 years later go "oh man I haven't shot that in forever, I'll toss it on Gunbroker" and it's another thing entirely to intentionally flip guns that you got at a deep discount.
    I'll take it a little further. If you are Jetfire and a professional gun writer and are paid to review guns for Pistols & Cartridges, what Jetfire does with review pistols afterward is up to the magazine (with possibly the spoken or unspoken understanding of the gun maker/dealer/etc so as to not jeopardize that relationship.) The readership doesn't get a say.

    Martens, however, is a paid employee of a non-profit, writing reviews and fluff pieces as part of his paid duties. He should not be making a profit off endeavors done on the organization's time in the course of his duties. Any income generated should go back to the non-profit.

    The "ATF/unlicensed dealer" may be an issue, but that's more like a "gotcha" to me (though possibly a very serious 'gotcha'.) I'm not qualified to say if he's broken any laws, but it's clear to me he's not acting in the non-profits best interest and is violating ethical norms.

    Now if the board knew he was making a profit off of his USPSA duties and the board didn't care...well I won't be surprised. There's a history of fiduciary irresponsibility and not acting in the members' interest.


    EDIT - basically what @JRV said. I missed that he had already said essentially the same thing.
    Last edited by Rocky Racoon; 08-16-2022 at 04:18 PM.

  6. #196
    Torx Hater RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Practical Shooting Insights has updated his Medium Blog with the latest on DME:

    https://medium.com/@practical.shooti...s-51b12973a23a
    Quote Originally Posted by Maple Syrup Actual
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  7. #197
    Site Supporter David S.'s Avatar
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    So that's it?

    Sum dood is breaking a chicken shit ATF law and making some unreported side money, and the "community" is feigning outrage and narcing him out?

    Yawn.

    Also. . . . typical.
    David S.

  8. #198
    Torx Hater RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S. View Post
    So that's it?

    Sum dood is breaking a chicken shit ATF law and making some unreported side money, and the "community" is feigning outrage and narcing him out?

    Yawn.

    Also. . . . typical.
    Just as a point of semantics - it's not an ATF law, it's Federal law and the ATF is the (potential) enforcing body.

    However, if you have an employee and pay him to do work for you. And he subsequently uses that position to break federal laws and evade taxes - that's not a "minor" issue. That is potentially opening up the organization to criminal and civil liability.

    Also as a shooting organization that is centered around promoting the lawful and responsible use of firearms there is no, zero, zilcho, room for the org to have any part or parcel in actions that break federal firearms laws. The Org, Board, and individual members can believe the laws are wrong, they can lobby, petition, and litigate in efforts to change them. But they are not above the law and cannot act with impunity towards it.

    As an aside - USPSA needs to hire an outside "NPO Business Firm" to organize and manage their day-to-day operations. The board should serve as an executive steering committee on a volunteer basis. No formal member of USPSA should be in a paid or compensated position. This is how professional scientific (and other) societies work and it helps keep the money away from the egos. It also helps keep things legally kosher and generally makes them run smoother. If USPSA lacks the financial assets needed to hire a Business Firm then there is a much great problem at hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maple Syrup Actual
    Be numb to the idiocy. It is too prevalent to defeat.

  9. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by David S. View Post
    So that's it?

    Sum dood is breaking a chicken shit ATF law and making some unreported side money, and the "community" is feigning outrage and narcing him out?

    Yawn.

    Also. . . . typical.
    No it’s that he’s intentionally getting guns at a discount using his status as an employee of a shooting sport then flipping those guns for personal profit which is regarded by the entire industry as “a dick move”
    I shot the PX4 before it was cool.

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