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Thread: Stoeger suspended from USPSA

  1. #251
    Site Supporter JRV's Avatar
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    They threw Joe from Infinity under the bus for that as well, and all he did was ask them for whatever legal advice the Board was relying on (other than a letter from a Sheriff) when they were telling folks to fly to Colorado with standard cap mags...
    Whenever you're sad, just remember: every day is one day closer to your next plate of nachos.

  2. #252
    Member DMF13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    . . . responsible for the Colorado USPSA Nationals fiasco . . .
    Regardless of who communicated with the CO AG, or the media, the responsibility for that fiasco starts, and ends, with the USPSA leadership. They had two legitimate/responsible choices: 1) start with a location without a magazine restriction, or 2) hold the match in CO, but follow the USPSA rule book, specifically 3.3.1, which reads, "In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest. Any such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match Director/Range Master before the start of the match."

    They were aware the CO law only allows for possession of magazines with a capacity greater than 15 rounds, if continually possessed since before the law went into effect in 2013. They were also aware that many people would be in the violation of the law if they brought their competition gear to CO. For example, one of the most popular divisions is Carry Optics, and one of the very popular Carry Optics guns is the SIG P320. No one could have possessed P320 mags prior to the Colorado magazine limit, because they weren't available for sale until 2014. So without much effort, it is easy to prove anyone with a P320 mag, capable of holding more than 15 rounds, is in violation of the law, because it could not have been possessed since before the law went into effect.

    The claims that it was a non-issue because the local Sheriff wouldn't enforce the ban are ridiculous. Anyone driving to the match will pass through several other cities, and counties. While most CO cops I know don't like the mag ban, that's not a universal sentiment, and it's not true for the various prosecutors either. Further, even if you made it to Mesa county without being contacted by LE, the local Sheriff isn't the only one who can make arrests in that county, and it would be the local District Attorney's office who would decide whether to prosecute based on an arrest made by another other agency.

    While the chances of being arrested for it are somewhat low, and an actual prosecution, lower, the number is not zero, as shown by actual arrests, and convictions, since the law was passed.

    Further, once the problem started receiving attention, to tell the members 'bring any mags you want, it's not a problem, but oh, by the way, sign this document saying you understand the law, and will comply with the law,' was extremely unprofessional, dishonest, and irresponsible.

    Anyone that denies that, is either ignorant of the realities of the legal issues, or being dishonest about the realities of the legal issues.

    All the rest is a sideshow, intended to lay blame anywhere other than the failure of the USPSA leadership to choose one of the two available, and responsible, options, for planning the national match.
    _______________
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  3. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Wait, what? Can you support that about doxxing? Iím skeptical.

    While Ben has posted some harsh memes, I havenít seen anything like that.

    The BoD and USPSA personnel have done far worse, including stalking a member and threatening many others with a frightening abuse of power.
    Quote Originally Posted by JRV View Post
    I'm responding to the insinuation that Derek doxxed anyone.

    He has posted board minutes, court records, and state business filings, all of which were public.
    I was referring to the stuff insights posted. He posted lots of personal information about BOD members relating to their past history and financials. Including stuff about their marriages and divorces. Some of which was decades old and doesnít relate at all to uspsa. It doesnít matter that itís ďpublicĒ. I can easily find out lots of very personal information about you thatís ďpublicĒ on the internet. Just because you are good at internet detective work doesnít mean you should share publicly what youíve found. I personally think itís inappropriate to post about a BOD personal life, marriages and divorces.

  4. #254
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCS View Post
    I was referring to the stuff insights posted. He posted lots of personal information about BOD members relating to their past history and financials. Including stuff about their marriages and divorces. Some of which was decades old and doesnít relate at all to uspsa. It doesnít matter that itís ďpublicĒ. I can easily find out lots of very personal information about you thatís ďpublicĒ on the internet. Just because you are good at internet detective work doesnít mean you should share publicly what youíve found. I personally think itís inappropriate to post about a BOD personal life, marriages and divorces.
    I agree. I would have redacted anything not related to financial concerns.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    "You donít really graduate from certain problems or certain thingsÖ like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  5. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by DMF13 View Post
    No one could have possessed P320 mags prior to the Colorado magazine limit, because they weren't available for sale until 2014.
    Sure they could have, the P320 takes the same mags that the P250 which was definitely in production before the cut off.

    But, your point is broadly correct and USPSA leadership dicked the dog on the Cameo thing
    Brand Manager for Taurus USA

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRV View Post
    Posting public records isnít doxxing.
    I have no knowledge of the specific incident discussed but posting public records can be doxing. Especially when targeting an individual and intentionally collecting, aggregating and distributing personally identifiable information - public or private - without their consent. It can also apply to organizations but the ethical case there is less clear.

  7. #257
    I think if everyone would have kept their mouth shut the match could have been held in Colorado and it would have been fine.

    I still think they should not have done it. Foley is gone and some more should go.

    To me that should be about the end of it and the rest just reminds me of internet cancel culture BS.

    A bankruptcy could be "just business" or could be someone who is completely irresponsible. Divorce issues could mean someone is a shitbag or that their spouse had a crafty lawyer. I can't tell which, and it may or may not have anything to do with whether that person should be on a BOD. So posting it to me is just trying to start controversy.

    Jake selling stuff, and not paying his taxes...I know a lot of people who sold primers, ammo etc for profit during the recent shortage and I'm pretty sure none of them paid taxes on any of it. I know a lot of people who have sold firearms for more than they paid and I'm sure never paid taxes, and I don't care. I certainly don't think anyone should lose a job over it.

    I also don't know what he got for free and what he didn't. There was a Colt Delta Elite and other non-competition items pictured in the group of stuff he sold and I doubt that was reviewed in Front Site (although I admit I don't pay that much attention to it). If CZ actually gave him that Shadow and they are offended that he sold it, that's between them and him. Investigating him and posting everything he sold, for what? Trying to get the IRS or ATF after him or something? '

    I guess if he ends up in jail they will be heroes and the world and USPSA will better, right?

    People cheating on classifiers? Don't care either. Want to have a GM card and get smoked at majors by A's and B's, have at it. If you are cheating, that is on you.

    Burning down USPSA doesn't help anything.

    Want to start a better organization, run better, with better people, better rules, better matches? Please do it, I have a life membership at USPSA and I'd be happy to buy one at your org, too.

  8. #258
    Member Mike Pipes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bofe954 View Post
    I think if everyone would have kept their mouth shut the match could have been held in Colorado and it would have been fine.

    I still think they should not have done it. Foley is gone and some more should go.

    To me that should be about the end of it and the rest just reminds me of internet cancel culture BS.

    A bankruptcy could be "just business" or could be someone who is completely irresponsible. Divorce issues could mean someone is a shitbag or that their spouse had a crafty lawyer. I can't tell which, and it may or may not have anything to do with whether that person should be on a BOD. So posting it to me is just trying to start controversy.

    Jake selling stuff, and not paying his taxes...I know a lot of people who sold primers, ammo etc for profit during the recent shortage and I'm pretty sure none of them paid taxes on any of it. I know a lot of people who have sold firearms for more than they paid and I'm sure never paid taxes, and I don't care. I certainly don't think anyone should lose a job over it.

    I also don't know what he got for free and what he didn't. There was a Colt Delta Elite and other non-competition items pictured in the group of stuff he sold and I doubt that was reviewed in Front Site (although I admit I don't pay that much attention to it). If CZ actually gave him that Shadow and they are offended that he sold it, that's between them and him. Investigating him and posting everything he sold, for what? Trying to get the IRS or ATF after him or something? '

    I guess if he ends up in jail they will be heroes and the world and USPSA will better, right?

    People cheating on classifiers? Don't care either. Want to have a GM card and get smoked at majors by A's and B's, have at it. If you are cheating, that is on you.

    Burning down USPSA doesn't help anything.

    Want to start a better organization, run better, with better people, better rules, better matches? Please do it, I have a life membership at USPSA and I'd be happy to buy one at your org, too.
    SAY IT LOUDER BROTHER
    The Thin Blue Line is TOO Thin........Thug Life Must End

  9. #259
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Iím a member, and I donít want to ďburn it downĒ. I want a BoD and President who donít act like petty tyrants, ban people because someone else posted on social media, knowingly ask members to break laws and assume responsibility, and I sure as fuck donít want cheaters to get a pass. What is the point of a sport if thereís no competitive equity?

    Loud enough?
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    "You donít really graduate from certain problems or certain thingsÖ like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  10. #260
    Oh Dremel, Dremel, Dremel JCN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Iím a member, and I donít want to ďburn it downĒ. I want a BoD and President who donít act like petty tyrants, ban people because someone else posted on social media, knowingly ask members to break laws and assume responsibility, and I sure as fuck donít want cheaters to get a pass. What is the point of a sport if thereís no competitive equity?

    Loud enough?
    We canít even get that in our government, so Iím not expecting it in our sport.

    Would be nice, but so would the ammo fairy putting cartridges under my pillow at night.
    Currently Iím still within the acceptable dickhead parameter of PF 2017+.

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