Page 12 of 14 FirstFirst ... 21011121314 LastLast
Results 111 to 120 of 136

Thread: Uvalde intensifies doubts over whether tiny police agencies make sense - Wash Post

  1. #111
    Member EMC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Utah
    If we consolidate all the departments then by default they must wear full face helmets right? [emoji38]

  2. #112
    Member TGS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Back in northern Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by EMC View Post
    If we consolidate all the departments then by default they must wear full face helmets right?
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  3. #113
    Where many counties and most provinces have contracted out policing to a national force, it isn't all that, and frankly, many wish they hadn't.

    Which would you prefer, a force that is accountable to local government, or a force that is unaccountable to anyone?

    <https://www.nighttimepodcast.com/nova-scotia-rampage>
    Last edited by Wendell; 07-24-2022 at 06:57 PM.

  4. #114
    I live and work in an area dominated by those small town PDs upon which doubt is apparently being cast. I am not the cops, but I am adjacent to them. Some musings, biased by my own experience:

    A small town police chief is accountable to the city council and, ostensibly, the voters that elect their council members. That accountability (and responsiveness) is only as good as the council. I have seen… some stuff… aired in council meetings that had little to do with law enforcement and lots to do with who was who in the local good ole boys network. But, the police chief was responsive to the council: to wit, he was fired.

    Small town PDs often cannot pay well. I regularly encounter officers who make, hourly, what fast food employees make. You get the people you pay for. Your go-getters either have something else tying them to the agency/locality (home being the most common) or they’re on to bigger and better things once the opportunity presents itself.

    What I’ve observed is something of a revolving door amongst some of the local departments, where officers lateral to a neighboring PD every year or two. Sometimes it’s work environment, but more often than not, they’re lateraling for another dollar or two an hour. It’s their way of getting a raise in a land full of towns with stagnant (and in some cases dwindling) tax bases that haven’t given a raise in years. It’s hell for stability and institutional knowledge. The one or two guys who are constants (at least as long as they can tolerate the chief/local politics) at the department end up starting over every other year. I know a guy who is a captain, the #2 at the agency; he has barely six years of experience (that’s not to denigrate him at all - he is a motivated officer who learned well, attended good training, and does good case work). He’s on his third “generation” of cops at his department.

    Speaking of pay, in most of these places the only sure way to increase your pay is to promote. It encourages people who perhaps ought not to be in positions of leadership or specialized slots to continuously apply. In the land of high turnover, eventually your number comes up. Or, better yet, you promote because of who you are. I can think of somebody who just made detective who made himself internet famous less than a year ago (not necessarily an integrity/honesty thing, but the sort of thing that in normal earth people land would be a career ender for a police officer in 2022). Every case he is involved with, he’s going to have to answer questions about his conduct and have his actions second-guessed. But, he’s tight with his boss.

    A dark side of small town policing is that problematic officers are at times tolerated out of necessity. It’s doubly true in this day and age, where there simply isn’t a long line of people waiting to replace you. Due to whatever you’d like to attribute it to, both hiring and retention are difficult today. Standards seem awfully low at times. An officer will get in trouble at Department A, resign, and within a month or two be working down the road at Department B. It’s almost like nobody’s inquiring with previous employers - or the new employers simply don’t care.

    An unintended consequence of all this department hopping is that officers sometimes don’t stick around long enough for their cases to make it to trial. They leave the jurisdiction, stop responding to phone calls, stop cooperating to the point where their old cases get dismissed, and so on and so forth. From an officer experience standpoint, this means many haven’t had to see how their case work held up in court - if they care about such things.

    Others more qualified than me have spoken about inappropriate allocation of training resources and low standards in law enforcement. All I’ll say is that training costs, and the above paragraphs shouldn’t paint a rosy picture of a small town department’s ability to fund training beyond the state minimums (and that’s done on a shoestring).

    Equipment: what pistol they’re armed with is the least of the issues (though I did see a guy rocking an HK45 in court the other day and smiled a little). Cars and cameras are where I see the gaps.

    I recently obtained a conviction at trial on a murder. Four officers responded to the scene initially. Only three were issued body cams. Two were malfunctioning (one simply was not working despite appearing to be activated on the other officers’ video footage, and the other had video but no audio). One worked as intended. These were known issues to the officers - they knew their stuff worked sometimes, other times it didn’t. Of the car cameras, only two of the four vehicles had car camera footage; one video would have been utterly useless had it been pointed in a direction with anything to record, it was such poor quality. The other camera, everything seemed to indicate it was assigned to another unit (it had been switched between cars - nobody seemed to know when, leading to questions about who was on scene).

    Gaps in coverage like the cameras are low hanging fruit for defense attorneys, who regularly note how awfully convenient it is for an officer’s camera to be malfunctioning on one case, working on the next, and no officers with cameras present on the third.

    It’s a weird dichotomy: on the one hand, policing almost universally represents the largest line item in a municipal budget around here - at times to the detriment of other, necessary services (you haven’t lived until you’ve watched a commission decide to skip buying new tires for the ambulances). On the other, in many instances the citizens are not getting the police they think they’re paying for - in training, experience, equipment, knowledge, or capability.

    None of this should be taken as me taking a side, but just adding a bit of perspective from a community that’s probably not too dissimilar to Uvalde.

  5. #115
    Having spent my formative years with a national police force, I can honestly say that its not all that we think it is. Its generally worse because the officers there have ZERO ties to the community. Uvalde wasn't a failure because they were a small department in a small town. It was a failure because small men were lead by even smaller men. Location and size and budget won't change that. If that was the root cause of said failure NYC, Chicago, Houston, LA... would all be crime free utopic cities. Yet they are not. You see that year round and you saw it in very dramatic sense during the summer of love that was 2020. Large departments standing about with their thumbs up their butts while cities burned and prosecutors let thugs roam free because once again small men doing the leading.

    Until you address the issue of prosecutors not putting criminals behind bars. Cities running busses over cops even when they are in the right for the sake of political correctness. Departments more interested in social workers than actual cops. A society that has no respect for its own laws. A society that thinks LEO are the solution to all their issues (from my kid won't do his homework to there is a guy shooting up a school). You won't solve the issues facing law enforcement as a profession.

    Federalizing LEO will do nothing but kick the can up the road. Is BP doing an efficient job of keeping people from entering this country illegally? Is INS doing a great job of dealing with illegals? They are a strong federal force with leadership that has no will to allow them to do their jobs. Incredibly similar to the issues local departments face across this nation.

    Where we could have some federal help, would be in standardizing training and standards. One set of objective standards for what a LEo should be could very much be useful. Except given the governments history of political correctness run amok, they would probably screw them up royally and offer little to no way to fix it cause 1 vote out go 400MM is not much impact. At least at the local level, one could in theory enact change faster as 1 vote out of 250K is much more meaningful.

  6. #116
    Member TGS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Back in northern Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by TAZ View Post
    Having spent my formative years with a national police force, I can honestly say that its not all that we think it is. Its generally worse because the officers there have ZERO ties to the community.
    To be fair, many cops in the US don't live where they patrol, either....and back before hiring and retention went to shit, it was common for the more prolific local departments to hire from all across the US.

    Agree with a lot of the other stuff you wrote, though. It's of note to me that you mention national police services, community policing, and people relying on the police for all sorts of shit that shouldn't be police issues. Most other police agencies other countries, particularly those with national police services, don't pretend to do the touchy-feely community policing like we are playing with here in the US. They don't have to pretend that everything is their problem.

    Just as an aside, not totally relevant...one of the weirdest systems I've seen is India. They have state police as their primary law enforcement service, but their leadership structure (what we would call Lieutenants, Captains, etc) are from the federal Indian Police Service that are then detailed to a specific state police force. The idea being that the federal government can enforce the standards and control they want across all of India, while the state police force still maintains its cultural relevance to the people being policed. If you join the police as a constable (what we call a patrolman/trooper/officer), the highest you can go in the rank structure is Sergeant.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  7. #117
    Abducted by Aliens Borderland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Camano Island WA.
    Quote Originally Posted by fatdog View Post
    One of the fastest growing cities in the county where I live has never had a department, their population exploded, and they indeed contracted in a similar way with the SO to provide those services in lieu of forming a department, as part of the deal, those patrol vehicles assigned to the city now not only bear the SO's branding but also have the city's name in large letters under the SO's decals.

    Our legislature in this year's session took a major step forward to begin to address one of our long term shameful problems in AL, the small town local PD's that are nothing more than speed trap revenue generators for the cities they are in. We had a major scandal with one of these speed trap only PD's, Brookside, that finally prompted the action. Now any city may not derive more than 10% of their total revenue from traffic fines.

    There are a gazillion of these tiny departments that provide north of 40% of the tiny incorporated town's revenue in AL. It is a thing that has been in place since the 60's and 70's and those departments have no meaningful investigative or crime fighting capabilities, they rely on the county for their dispatch, and they don't even offer 24 hour service. When a serious crime happens they call in the SO or the state (ALEA) because they cannot handle a robbery or homicide investigation on their own. Their patrols are focused on setting up to ticket moving violations. Most of these towns have set the stage on their major highway with quick step down speed limits that catch the unaware out of towners. They simply do not need to exist and never did. Hopefully these funding rules will finally choke some of them out of existing.
    I wish the sheriff here would enforce the posted speed limit. I routinely see people going by our private drive doing 10-15 over the speed limit. I've ask the sheriff to write a few tickets but so far no enforcement. I voted his ass down the road a few days ago.
    In the P-F basket of deplorables.

  8. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    To be fair, many cops in the US don't live where they patrol, either....and back before hiring and retention went to shit, it was common for the more prolific local departments to hire from all across the US.

    Agree with a lot of the other stuff you wrote, though. It's of note to me that you mention national police services, community policing, and people relying on the police for all sorts of shit that shouldn't be police issues. Most other police agencies other countries, particularly those with national police services, don't pretend to do the touchy-feely community policing like we are playing with here in the US. They don't have to pretend that everything is their problem.

    Just as an aside, not totally relevant...one of the weirdest systems I've seen is India. They have state police as their primary law enforcement service, but their leadership structure (what we would call Lieutenants, Captains, etc) are from the federal Indian Police Service that are then detailed to a specific state police force. The idea being that the federal government can enforce the standards and control they want across all of India, while the state police force still maintains its cultural relevance to the people being policed. If you join the police as a constable (what we call a patrolman/trooper/officer), the highest you can go in the rank structure is Sergeant.

    The India arrangement is probably rooted in the colonial era, where a similar arrangement was done with first East India officers over local troops then the system was carried over for direct British control.

  9. #119
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Hey it works when schools are consolidated to one district. It makes it harder for parents or the local citizens to have a voice in local policy. It’s a feature not a bug.

  10. #120

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by ssb View Post
    I live and work in an area dominated by those small town PDs upon which doubt is apparently being cast. I am not the cops, but I am adjacent to them. Some musings, biased by my own experience:

    A small town police chief is accountable to the city council and, ostensibly, the voters that elect their council members.

    What do you considered small towns? I ask because in most cities the Chief is accountable to, you guessed it, the Mayor or City Council.

    Small town PDs often cannot pay well. I regularly encounter officers who make, hourly, what fast food employees make. You get the people you pay for. Your go-getters either have something else tying them to the agency/locality (home being the most common) or they’re on to bigger and better things once the opportunity presents itself.

    This is mostly true. Often small-town officers make less than a good solid blue-collar job in the area. But then again, often city officers make less than workers in good solid blue-collar jobs in their area. While it is often true that small-town officers have a vested interest in the community, they or their significant other may be from the area, there are also other reasons for becoming a small town officer - location being a prime one. Also, while wages may be less in a rural area, the wage usually spreads further.


    I know a guy who is a captain, the #2 at the agency; he has barely six years of experience (that’s not to denigrate him at all - he is a motivated officer who learned well, attended good training, and does good case work). He’s on his third “generation” of cops at his department.

    I started at what most would consider a small agency, we ran 5 officers per shift when I started. I was running a patrol shift with 8 officers per shift when I left, so the Department grew a little. What I found out was that I had done a fuck-ton more real police work as a patrol officer than the 'big city' officers I later worked with. Largely because I had to do pretty much everything. I quickly learned the difference between a preliminary investigative report taken by a guy who does follow-up and a preliminary report (notice I left out investigative) taken by a guy who just fills in the blanks so the detectives know where to start over on the investigation.

    Where the rubber hits the road, it's people who make the difference, not the size of agency they work for.

    Speaking of pay, in most of these places the only sure way to increase your pay is to promote. It encourages people who perhaps ought not to be in positions of leadership or specialized slots to continuously apply. In the land of high turnover, eventually your number comes up.

    Or, better yet, you promote because of who you are. But, he’s tight with his boss.


    As far as I know, most places have service requirements for promotion, and most places, large or small, have folks who apply for ever position they can as soon as they are eligible. Additionally, most large agencies have more 'legacy' cops than small agencies and every agency, large or small, likely has someone stuck to someones backside like a remora fish. These traits certainly aren't limited to small agencies.

    A dark side of small town policing is that problematic officers are at times tolerated out of necessity. It’s doubly true in this day and age, where there simply isn’t a long line of people waiting to replace you. Due to whatever you’d like to attribute it to, both hiring and retention are difficult today. Standards seem awfully low at times. An officer will get in trouble at Department A, resign, and within a month or two be working down the road at Department B. It’s almost like nobody’s inquiring with previous employers - or the new employers simply don’t care.

    Problematic officers are all too often tolerated at all agencies. Mayb because of unions, maybe because of connections, maybe because it's simply less hassle to tolerate them. Here is an example:

    Fifteen years ago, after the Rodney King beating, the Los Angeles Police Department was in crisis. It was accused of racial insensitivity and ill discipline and violence, and the assumption was that those problems had spread broadly throughout the rank and file. In the language of statisticians, it was thought that L.A.P.D.’s troubles had a “normal” distribution—that if you graphed them the result would look like a bell curve, with a small number of officers at one end of the curve, a small number at the other end, and the bulk of the problem situated in the middle. The bell-curve assumption has become so much a part of our mental architecture that we tend to use it to organize experience automatically.

    But when the L.A.P.D. was investigated by a special commission headed by Warren Christopher, a very different picture emerged. Between 1986 and 1990, allegations of excessive force or improper tactics were made against eighteen hundred of the eighty-five hundred officers in the L.A.P.D. The broad middle had scarcely been accused of anything. Furthermore, more than fourteen hundred officers had only one or two allegations made against them—and bear in mind that these were not proven charges, that they happened in a four-year period, and that allegations of excessive force are an inevitable feature of urban police work. (The N.Y.P.D. receives about three thousand such complaints a year.)

    A hundred and eighty-three officers, however, had four or more complaints against them, forty-four officers had six or more complaints, sixteen had eight or more, and one had sixteen complaints. If you were to graph the troubles of the L.A.P.D., it wouldn’t look like a bell curve. It would look more like a hockey stick. It would follow what statisticians call a “power law” distribution—where all the activity is not in the middle but at one extreme.

    The Christopher Commission’s report repeatedly comes back to what it describes as the extreme concentration of problematic officers. One officer had been the subject of thirteen allegations of
    excessive use of force, five other complaints, twenty-eight “use of force reports” (that is, documented, internal accounts of inappropriate behavior), and one shooting. Another had six excessive-force
    complaints, nineteen other complaints, ten use-of-force reports, and three shootings. A third had twenty-seven use-of-force reports, and a fourth had thirty-five. Another had a file full of complaints for doing things like “striking an arrestee on the back of the neck with the butt of a shotgun for no apparent reason while the arrestee was kneeling and handcuffed,” beating up a thirteen-year-old juvenile,and throwing an arrestee from his chair and kicking him in the back and side of the head while he was handcuffed and lying on his stomach.


    The report gives the strong impression that if you fired those forty-four cops the L.A.P.D. would suddenly become a pretty well-functioning police department.

    But the report also suggests that the problem is tougher than it seems, because those forty-four bad cops were so bad that the institutional mechanisms in place to get rid of bad apples clearly weren’t working. If you made the mistake of assuming that the department’s troubles fell into a normal distribution, you’d propose solutions that would raise the performance of the middle—like better training or better hiring—when the middle didn’t need help. For those hard-core few who did need help, meanwhile, the medicine that helped the middle wouldn’t be nearly strong enough. (Miilion Dollar Murray, Malcolm Gladwell)

    An unintended consequence of all this department hopping is that officers sometimes don’t stick around long enough for their cases to make it to trial. They leave the jurisdiction, stop responding to phone calls, stop cooperating to the point where their old cases get dismissed, and so on and so forth. From an officer experience standpoint, this means many haven’t had to see how their case work held up in court - if they care about such things.

    This may be an issue that is more prevalent in your area than other areas. Granted, turnover is a problem with all agencies. In Kansas one small town Chief (15 officers) explained it this way - my guys need to live, if their wife doesn't teach or work at the hospital, they are looking to move east to Hays, and after Hays to Salina. His council understood that and after he did a little work comparing wages and work load with other agencies, he got his guys a significant raise.

    It’s a weird dichotomy: on the one hand, policing almost universally represents the largest line item in a municipal budget around here - at times to the detriment of other, necessary services (you haven’t lived until you’ve watched a commission decide to skip buying new tires for the ambulances). On the other, in many instances the citizens are not getting the police they think they’re paying for - in training, experience, equipment, knowledge, or capability.

    True. However, very seldom does the level of service increase after that small department goes away and the Sheriff or whomever takes over patrol.

    None of this should be taken as me taking a side, but just adding a bit of perspective from a community that’s probably not too dissimilar to Uvalde.
    Boy, I'd hate to see you actually take sides.
    Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •