Ammo question for an old P6.

[MattyD380]

With a fully loaded mag, I feel like all my single stack 9mms "nose dive" to some degree (except my Makarov). At max spring pressure, the bullets just seem to want to nose down, whereas they feed more "straight-ly" under less spring pressure.

With my P5, you can literally see where rounds hit the feed ramp at different angles. The first 2-3 rounds in the mag will hit on that lower wear-point...



...the rest of the rounds will hit progressively above that, until the last round or two will feed almost straight into the chamber. But... it works. My P5 seems to feed everything, even with that janky-looking ramp. It's such a fantastic shooter, too.

From what I can tell, the P6 feeds exactly the same way; there's just no record of the impact pattern, because the ramp is steel. So did my Kahr K9. So did my Sig P230s (.380s). I just kinda assumed that was the "nature" of single stack 9s and they were engineered to function that way.

I did, however, have the slide-lock failure in a P6, as JoninWA described. But... only when chambering from slide lock (never while shooting)... and only when using purely moly grease on the slide rails. I just attributed that issue to the more viscous lube slowing the slide down. Never happened when using just oil... even from slide lock, with old springs and old mags.

I will also say my P239s seem to nosedive less than other single stack 9s.

[CSW]

I first read M. Ayoob on the spreading lips of the P6/225.

Which is why I thought of a P225 grip shape to fit the P239 (not P235, oops).

My P225 is relegated to House Gun and does not see enough use to be afflicted.

I think the P-guns pretty much peaked out with the P228.

I have a 228 as well. Always liked the single stack grip better.

[LtDave]

We issued 9BP and 9BPLE for at least a decade. New designs are better, but I wouldn't lose sleep if I had to carry either of those now.

The sleeper Federal load IMHO is the XM9001 which was allegedly loaded for the RCMP. It is not marked +P, but velocity is midway between 9BP and 9BPLE with what appears to be the same bullet. It was available a few years ago and has shot extremely well for me in multiple guns. I bought a bunch of it. If you can find some, it is worth a look.

[P30]

One more relevant thing came to my mind: Police here in Germany now mainly uses RUAG Action ammo.

How version 4 looks:

ruag.com/.../9x19_Deformation_Ammunition_en_low.pdf

I'm quite sure, when they switched from full-metall jackets to hollow-points, the hollow-points looked already like in the picture, i.e. they had a round-nose (namely the plastic tip). I'm not sure, when they switched. But maybe the round-nose hollow-point design was chosen in order to make the P6 feed reliably. The P6 was once the most frequent police pistol here in Germany. I only don't know yet, if it still was when they switched to hollow-points.

PS:
Just found this article. It says (machine translated):

The Conference of Interior Ministers (IMK) therefore decided in June 1999 to equip the police as a whole with a new deformation ammunition to be developed.

Searched more and found another relevant article from 6/2001 saying:

Since the beginning of the year, the Action 4 cartridge from Dynamit Nobel has been undergoing the prescribed certification procedure at the responsible firing office in Ulm, which has now been completed.
[...]
Although the certification process already includes a function test of 200 shots in the service weapons introduced by the police, the endurance test provides for a load of 5,000 shots in the service weapons. The following weapon models are used for this test: Walther P 5, SIG Sauer P 6, Heckler & Koch P 7, Heckler & Koch P 10, Glock P 9 M and the MP 5 submachine gun.

So since 2001, "Action 4" ammo is certified as Police ammo in Germany. In 2001, the P6 was still used big time in Germany as police pistol. So the P6 feeds "Action 4" fine, otherwise this ammo would not have been certified as police ammo in 2001. BTW: I know that the author of the second article, Wolfgang Dicke, also introduced HK's LEM trigger system to German police. He worked for the police and was an important dude concerning the selection of German police pistols at that time.

[JonInWA]

So you assume, if he ever had to use his trusty "Excalibur" to defend his life, it would likely have let him down? And this would apply for every German police officer with a P6? These were more than 100,000 police officers.

"Das wäre ja ein dicker Hund!" Literally translated: Now that would be a fat dog! Do you also say so in English? Means in German: That would be a huge thing!

P30, you cited an anecdotal friend using a P6. I asked you some specific questions that might provide some clarification; hopefully you can query him regarding them.

I'll respectfully suggest that you carefully re-read my posts on this thread. The problems I encountered with my P225 occurred during reloads from slidelock. If a P225/P6 carrying LEO had to rely on his pistol, he would likely have 8 or 9 shots at his (or her) disposal before emptying the initial administratively loaded magazine and getting to slidelock/emergency reload-which is specifically where the problems occurred, in the documented case of myself and others cited. I suggested that the slide velocity and mass preclude operational issues during "normal" slide reciprocation during the firing sequence.

I'll take my fat dog/wurst with Gray Poupon and sauerkraut, please....

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

And today, an HK P30L LEM is a pistol that I'm qualified on and use for duty, competition (IDPA/ASI) and EDC/home defense. I consider it to have equal ergos with the P225 and a far superior operating system, trigger (albeit one with an acquired taste), superior (bombproof) magazines, greater capacity, multiple caliber options, and superior weather/environmental imperviousness.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

I'll also suggest that the Action 4 testing might have been done in a relatively condensed test period, before pressure on the feed lips over time could have occurred and affected the P225/P6 guns tested. In other words, the testing might not have been dispositive, but only essentially covering brand-new guns and magazines at the point of issue, not after accumulation of time and use over time.

For what it's worth, the issues I experienced were predominantly, if not exclusively with 115 gr ball ammunition; in those days I was probably shooting mostly Winchester and Blazer 9mm cartridges. I don't recall them occurring with any of my carry cartridges, but back in the day I would only fire a several magazines of carry ammunition a year, and mostly would use commercial factory ball for practice and competition use, which is where most of my P225 use was.

Best, Jon

[Borderland]

And today, an HK P30L LEM is a pistol that I'm qualified on and use for duty, competition (IDPA/ASI) and EDC/home defense. I consider it to have equal ergos with the P225 and a far superior operating system, trigger (albeit one with an acquired taste), superior (bombproof) magazines, greater capacity, multiple caliber options, and superior weather/environmental imperviousness.

Best, Jon

I much prefer my P-30 over any Sig I've owned. I won't sell any P series Sigs anymore though because people are starting to realize they really are exceptional tools. One of these days people are going to wonder why so many of those wonderful pistols were discontinued.

[TheNewbie]

With a fully loaded mag, I feel like all my single stack 9mms "nose dive" to some degree (except my Makarov). At max spring pressure, the bullets just seem to want to nose down, whereas they feed more "straight-ly" under less spring pressure.

With my P5, you can literally see where rounds hit the feed ramp at different angles. The first 2-3 rounds in the mag will hit on that lower wear-point...



...the rest of the rounds will hit progressively above that, until the last round or two will feed almost straight into the chamber. But... it works. My P5 seems to feed everything, even with that janky-looking ramp. It's such a fantastic shooter, too.

From what I can tell, the P6 feeds exactly the same way; there's just no record of the impact pattern, because the ramp is steel. So did my Kahr K9. So did my Sig P230s (.380s). I just kinda assumed that was the "nature" of single stack 9s and they were engineered to function that way.

I did, however, have the slide-lock failure in a P6, as JoninWA described. But... only when chambering from slide lock (never while shooting)... and only when using purely moly grease on the slide rails. I just attributed that issue to the more viscous lube slowing the slide down. Never happened when using just oil... even from slide lock, with old springs and old mags.

I will also say my P239s seem to nosedive less than other single stack 9s.

The P239 is known to be highly reliable, correct?

[MattyD380]

The P239 is known to be highly reliable, correct?

I would say it is. That seems to be the consensus based on what I’ve gleaned over the years as an internet gun nerd. Mine have all been very reliable. I have 2 9mms and one in .357 Sig. It was used by various police agencies and federal agencies… including the secret service and homeland security, I believe.

Here’s my take on it, if you’re curious: https://hipstertactical.com/blog/sig...w-combat-carry