What does it mean to be a good shooter?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

One difficulty is finding a place where you could do some of the drills. The Hateful 8 is a great one from the description. We run a minimatch which bends the USPSA orthodoxy, so I'm suggesting it to the match deities. Going to slide lock might horrify some. I have no fear of sucking at something. We do have one guy who constantly rage quits if a stage doesn't go well.

For grins, I've run the sequence against the spare bedroom wall with my SIRT - obviously no slide lock or recoil but that's what you got at home.

[Mark D]

Ken Hackathorn identified four levels of shooters - incompetent, competent, good, and great. He offered that you didn't have to be a great shooter but you needed to be a good shooter. Dr. Lewinski has offered that "an expert has automatic use of the tool." This tells me than one should be able to manipulate the pistol efficiently, be able to hit in a timely fashion, and remain calm as the world devolves into noise and chaos.

I think of trigger control as a series of steps:
1) Press the trigger without disturbing the sights
2) Press the trigger quickly without disturbing the sights
3) Know how to throttle trigger control (and firing solution*) based on target difficulty/size
4) Be able to run the trigger while tracking the sights
5) Know how to apply enough firing solution to be able to hit a moving target

For technical shooting skill to solve real world problems, the point of diminishing returns starts at C class and is reached by B class.

My favorite definition of whether you can shoot "good enough" is the ability to spin a Farnam Rotator, ideally in one magazine. The Farnam rotator makes the shooter break shots in time frames the shooter does not control. You must make the shot "now!" or fail the task. That need to be able to break a shot "now" while still hitting is a critical skill that is often neglected.

While some people scoff at "convoluted" shooting drills the real measure of how well you've mastered something is your ability to sequence rapidly through various skills. For instance I have three drills - 1 round from the holster, a Bill Drill, and a draw 1 round reload one round. The draw-1-reload-1 is the most predictive of real world success.

For this reason, I really like the Hateful 8. If you can run Hateful 8 and keep all your rounds in the 8 ring or better, you are a "good enough" shooter that you can worry about other stuff like empty hands, strength and conditioning, etc.

Just a final side note, when we're talking about times to complete certain tasks, we really need to specify where the gun is coming from. AIWB is not an apples-to-apples comparison with concealed strong side hip or a duty rig.

* - firing solution is my shorthand for the fundamentals. It's not just sights and trigger. For some problems I don't have to have a great "stance" or worry about breath control. The harder a shot is the more "firing solution" you have to apply.

John - as always your input is valued and appreciated. I have a couple of thoughts, and follow up questions.

I could be wrong, but I believe the Hateful 8, with two slide lock reloads, is an an unrealistic test of required skills for a private citizen. It may be more relevant for LEO, due the higher number of reloads we see in officer involved shootings.

"AIWB is not an apples-to-apples comparison with concealed strong side hip or a duty rig." Are you able to expound on this? I thought they were all roughly equal in terms of time required for the draw stroke.

Like @JCN, I am also interested in the importance of the "draw 1 round reload one round". Since reloads are incredibly rare in private citizen shootings, I'm curious why you emphasize this skill as an important metric.

Not trying to be argumentative, just curious.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I won't answer for John, of course. However, as a private citizen - testing competency in basic gun handling skills with a modicum of speed stress makes sense to me. It's a variant of the 5 is enough, will the gun malfunction, etc. endless debate. Reloading on slide lock - well, a lot of malfunctions have you locking back the slide. Shooting sports where folks assiduously try to avoid slide lock suggests to me that you should test your stress/fast reload skills as that is more DA STREEZ. Check the endless boring - did anyone ever do a tactical reload debate?

I've never had to lift 200 lbs - but I did practice that (note - not anymore!!).

[TNK]

Learning not to be a jerk on the range. You follow the 4 rules religiously. You do not accidentally shoot yourself or others. You accept a disqualification gracefully and stick around to help the squad. You are not afraid to be on a learning curve because you will be always learning something new. You do not mock other shooters. You do not talk about politics, religion, or other contentious topics while on the range. You buy 9mm Luger ammo only and accept that all matches are now lost brass matches. You volunteer your time as you are able. You do not argue with range or safety officers. You are grateful you can attend a match or a training session without seeking permission from the government. Skills are one thing, being a decent person is another, and being a decent person with a gun is something else unto itself. This is what I have learned from when I shot my first match 20 years ago.

[Rocket20_Ginsu]

Agree with the consensus thus far, B class or equivalent is my baseline for a good shooter.

Some additional points:
-very good muzzle & trigger discipline and awareness
- > 2.5 sec bill drill
-efficient manipulations. Draw, reload, transitions, malfunctions
-on demand performance with lower probability targets at reasonable speed (ex 20-25 yd plate rack)


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[1Rangemaster]

I’ll put in my few cents:
1)Safe handling and manipulating need to be nearly “unconscious”. Don’t shoot yourself, innocent others or anything of value.
2)A relatively good citizen, responsible in public. Able to articulate the legal ramifications of having a firearm. All this related to private use.
3)I’ll mention the obligatory “B” class practical shooting competitor. I’m not sure what that equates to in IDPA-“Sharpshooter”? @Mas Ayoob once wrote sub 100 seconds over the GSSF courses of fire. Competition is not for everyone. I would then respectfully suggest “passing” at least your state LE qualifications yearly. Do something that produces some stress.
4)Clark Jackson suggested to me not long ago the “Core 4”: the first four strings of “The Standards” by @Kevin B. 6 of 8 successful runs.
5)I’m partial to the 5 yard roundup shot in reverse: support hand first, etc. ending in a concealed freestyle shot in 2.5 seconds. 90 passes.
6)Ringing a full size popper/ B/C silhouette or equivalent @ 25 and 50 yards, 2 out of 3 times in 5 seconds or less from a ready start.

I could go on; Cirillo suggested a successful hunter, and I believe Cooper did also. Rifles will be different, as will shotguns. Karl Rehn has a graduated classification. Other schools have similar evaluations. If it could be defined well, success in a shoot/no shoot scenario.
I’d pretty much insist on the first two above. I’d be happy to see folks pull off a 5x5x5 freestyle, shooting hand only(one with a light) and 5 rounds into 5”@5 yards in 10 seconds as a minimum perhaps(?)
@John Hearne: I too would like to hear you expound on the reload requirement.

[John Hearne]

Please don't take this as me trying to be a cool guy and saying I have "sources" but I've been able to talk to legitimate experts who may not want their name associated with my interpretation/memory of what they said. When speaking with one of researchers doing legit work in this area, the issue of sequencing skills was mentioned as hugely predictive of success.

It is very rare that we can test what we want to measure directly. For instance, if I wanted to test the state of your aerobic system, I might have you run a mile or row a certain distance. I'm trying to predict your aerobic fitness for field performance but a direct test would be difficult to measure, replicate, and may be prone to injury. Instead we look for proxy measures that correlate well with what we want to measure. If I want to measure how well you've ingrained a skill, it is apparently best to test how quickly you can swap between that skill and other skills. By interrupting your shooting motor program by a draw and then a reload, I see how well the motor program is developed.

At a certain level, it doesn't matter much how we interrupt the skill. For instance, we could ask you to draw, fire, shuffle a deck of cards, and fire again. Using a reload allows us to test a skill that is at least related to the same domain. If you don't like the two reloads in the Hateful 8, I'd look at Tom Given's 3-M drill which is a variation of the DTI Dance. The shooting process is interrupted by a malfunction clearance and a single reload. Of the two, the Hateful 8 is easier to run repeatedly since you don't have to chase down a dummy round. (As an aside, elite military units will "fuck with" their guys with sudden interruptions. In one of the books on "Delta" the candidates are stacked at a door about to perform an entry. A time out is called and candidates suddenly have to perform some random, unrelated task and then resume)

At a behavioral level, if you're good at shooting, you're probably good at other shooting related skills as well. Cooper wasn't off when he developed the triad - marksmanship, manipulation, and mindset. Manipulation is a co-equal with marksmanship and testing it isn't a bad thing - whether its more or less likely. So whether we like it or not, in scientific testing of a quality good enough to be published in one of the world's top science journal, the draw-fire-reload-fire was found to be the most predictive test.

Of interest to this group, the expert I spoke with was also a huge fan of competition and dry practice. He loved competition because it is a long string of sequenced skills. He thought that dry practice was our most underutilized resource

[JohnO]

I've trained with a guy who had the skill to never miss a C-zone steel target at 120 yards with a double action revolver. Someone might say "that's a good shooter". However you would be scarred shitless to shoot next to him in a line. The guy was a soup sandwich with Everything else!

[1Rangemaster]

@John Hearne -
Thank you very much for the reply. I went back to review the “H8”, ans found your post there instructive. I understand now your thinking through the situation. I’ll give the drill a try.
I also recall a comment from you about several dry draws before one ventures out- good advice to follow too.

[John Hearne]

@John Hearne -
Thank you very much for the reply. I went back to review the “H8”, ans found your post there instructive. I understand now your thinking through the situation. I’ll give the drill a try.
I also recall a comment from you about several dry draws before one ventures out- good advice to follow too.

So I remember writing about H8 in detail and Mas even publishing what I wrote but F me if I can find the thread despite diligent searching. Could you thrown me a link? Thanks....