What does it mean to be a good shooter?

[John Hearne]

"AIWB is not an apples-to-apples comparison with concealed strong side hip or a duty rig." Are you able to expound on this? I thought they were all roughly equal in terms of time required for the draw stroke.

Most folks recognize that AIWB is objectively faster. The gun is already closer to the centerline of the body and the hands don't have to travel back and then forward to bring the gun into play. Gabe White gives a 0.25 bonus to those shooting from concealment but anyone who's run his tests realizes that 0.25 is a true bonus from AIWB but not nearly enough from strong side hip. Regarding duty rigs, if it's a true duty rig, the holster will have retention. Even if it is just releasing the ALS system, your hand has to come to a complete stop to do that - as opposed to scooping and going. We see a lot of sub-one second draws from AIWB but damn few from strong side hip.

[John Hearne]

John, can you explain or expand more on the Farnam Rotator drill? Does anyone have a video of the drill?

AFAIK, the Farnam Rotator is a proprietary design made by the Ravelin Group. I know the owner and understand that he tried to patent the design but without success. Once patents weren't a concern, other companies started making them. The other really good example is the Spinner from MGM Targets. As noted these targets force you to break a shot in a time frame you do not control. This need will really sort out your ability to quickly press the trigger without disturbing the sights.

I like the Farnam because I think its a little harder. On the Rotator, the plates are offset so you can't simply track your sights up and own. Also on the Rotator, the weight shift is done by using a longer arm instead of making the plates different sizes. On the MGM design, the plates are stacked above one another. Also the bottom plate is a 10" hexagon which is much easier to double tap than the 8" square on the Rotator. Also, there is an established calibration process for the Rotator. With the MGM, you lube the heck out of it and hope for the best. The MGM has the advantage of being rifle friendly. The MGM spinner is used a lot in 3 gun matches. I've got access to one and smacking it with a rifle has been a non-issue.

[1Rangemaster]

@John Hearne :

I found your post by searching “Hateful 8” here.

Your relevant post is #5; thread is “Advanced Supertest variation-reload diagnostic”, 5/11/2019.

Keep up your good work, sir.

Edited to add: I agree on the Farnam rotator, but I’ve seen casual competitors at a local match lose their minds and a mag full of ammo trying to spin an MGM too…

[JCN]

At a behavioral level, if you're good at shooting, you're probably good at other shooting related skills as well. Cooper wasn't off when he developed the triad - marksmanship, manipulation, and mindset. Manipulation is a co-equal with marksmanship and testing it isn't a bad thing - whether its more or less likely. So whether we like it or not, in scientific testing of a quality good enough to be published in one of the world's top science journal, the draw-fire-reload-fire was found to be the most predictive test.

Of interest to this group, the expert I spoke with was also a huge fan of competition and dry practice. He loved competition because it is a long string of sequenced skills. He thought that dry practice was our most underutilized resource

I was thinking you’d say something like that. Thanks for taking the time to elaborate. 1 reload 1 is a good drill for saving ammo. I usually like to do it with a transition to really maximize efficiency.

[strow]

It looks like Atlas Targets has a rifle rated 6"/8" spinnner that has the option of offsetting the targets.

https://www.atlastargetworks.com/products/ar500-spinner

A neat way to practice sequencing and threading the shot under narrow time constraints. Kind of a lower tech version of Louis Awerbuck's moving/wabbling "Shoot" and "No-shoot" target system.

[Mark D]

Most folks recognize that AIWB is objectively faster... We see a lot of sub-one second draws from AIWB but damn few from strong side hip.

I hadn't considered that, but it makes sense. Thanks @John Hearne.

[JCN]

It looks like Atlas Targets has a rifle rated 6"/8" spinnner that has the option of offsetting the targets.

https://www.atlastargetworks.com/products/ar500-spinner

A neat way to practice sequencing and threading the shot under narrow time constraints. Kind of a lower tech version of Louis Awerbuck's moving/wabbling "Shoot" and "No-shoot" target system.

I love Atlas target stuff. I have a bunch of their products. Great prices and great quality.

[JCN]

Most folks recognize that AIWB is objectively faster. The gun is already closer to the centerline of the body and the hands don't have to travel back and then forward to bring the gun into play. Gabe White gives a 0.25 bonus to those shooting from concealment but anyone who's run his tests realizes that 0.25 is a true bonus from AIWB but not nearly enough from strong side hip. Regarding duty rigs, if it's a true duty rig, the holster will have retention. Even if it is just releasing the ALS system, your hand has to come to a complete stop to do that - as opposed to scooping and going. We see a lot of sub-one second draws from AIWB but damn few from strong side hip.

Obviously you’re talking about draws from concealment.

I’ll make the qualification that the strong side hip is mainly a time disadvantage due to concealment garment clearing and not mechanics. Assuming that the hands can start anywhere below belt.

Strong side without cover garment is the fastest for me if I can start hands anywhere.

Because I don’t have to flip the muzzle up and onto target like I have to with AIWB.

So it’s not the position of holster, it’s mechanics of cover garment that makes the AIWB faster IMO.

[Caballoflaco]

Obviously you’re talking about draws from concealment.

I’ll make the qualification that the strong side hip is mainly a time disadvantage due to concealment garment clearing and not mechanics. Assuming that the hands can start anywhere below belt.

Strong side without cover garment is the fastest for me if I can start hands anywhere.

Because I don’t have to flip the muzzle up and onto target like I have to with AIWB.

So it’s not the position of holster, it’s mechanics of cover garment that makes the AIWB faster IMO.

The position of the holster does play a part in it. Especially for skinny folks like me who needed heavily canted holsters worn behind the hip bone in order to actually conceal the gun. The holster styles that were recommended and that I used in the mid 2000’s required the grip of the gun to be at almost 4:30 on my belt in order to conceal decently.

For me that draw is going to be slower than AIWB or a holster worn at 3:00 whether or not I’m clearing a cover garment.

[JCN]

The position of the holster does play a part in it. Especially for skinny folks like me who needed heavily canted holsters worn behind the hip bone in order to actually conceal the gun. The holster styles that were recommended and that I used in the mid 2000’s required the gun to be at almost 4:30 on my belt in order to conceal decently.

For me that draw is going to be slower than AIWB or a holster worn at 3:00 whether or not I’m clearing a cover garment.

I’m going to suggest that’s a holster issue rather than an inherent in the position issue.

“Concealed strong side” when shooting without concealment garment could mean an OWB drop holster if the concealment was a jacket.

There are some very real disadvantages to an AIWB draw when it comes to rapid speed AND accuracy.

Having to flip the muzzle out matters.