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Thread: RDS-specific Drill or Training Program?

  1. #21
    It is wether it helps or not. I have a list of guys as long as my arm who gave up on dots because they couldn’t reliably pick it up. This is after years of iron shooting. Competition shooters are their own breed. They put the work in and it’s competition. A flat presentation while on your side behind cover wearing body armor makes picking up the dot a lot tougher. The high draw to flat presentation is subtle but helps a lot. To each his own. Not saying your way is wrong. Again, these are tier 1 guys teaching this technique not me.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triarii View Post
    2) "Drop from 12 o'clock". This helped me acquire the dot on presentation. You always want the dot to drop from 12 o'clock, so it falls into your view onto target reliably. An effective high draw, to a high presentation. You're driving the gun forward on an angle, as subtle as it needs to be, so that the dot drops from 12 o'clock right as you reach full extension. I believe Pat Mcnamara did a short Youtube vid on the technique.
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Going to give a big “fuck no” to this one. That’s a training wheel crutch to an inefficient draw. It’s such a “no” that it even has a name: “fishing / casting” and is specifically derided by good shooters. The gun comes from below so if you keep the muzzle presenting at the target the dot will come from slightly below. If you drop from 12 o clock high you’re streaking the muzzle from above which is inefficient and induces angular momentum that adds slop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triarii View Post
    The drop from 12 is critical as acquiring the dot can be tough when your shooting unconventional positions. Shoot 9 hole in full gear after running 100 yards. Room entries moving one handed. The drop ensures that the dot comes into focus reliably. It was taught to me by a pretty established instructor and really helped me find the dot when shooting more unconventional shooting positions. Not something I need to do with irons. The laser just ensures proper control throughout the pull. It’s not for long distance. Set it and 10 feet, and work on drawing from concealment for speed/moving and shooting etc. it’s a great tool. https://youtu.be/icYacDHBeJ0 Go to 3:45 on this Tier 1 video to see the “drop from 12” concept explained. I’ve never taken a class where it’s not taught.
    The Glock MOS Instructor Workshop (specifically instructs what you guys are talking about. Their method is a slight elevation of the muzzle upon presentation with a drop into dot acquisition. Small movements, not the larger more commonly associated with casting/fishing. Very effective for the learner and more average shooter and similar to what has already been learned. Usable SHO, WHO, and irregular positions. I've seen it elsewhere as well.

    Straight-line/press-out presentations are attainable and probably a better method, but more time and reps than many will devote.

    Sidenote: The MOS IW was a good class, and a good example of dot-minded vs dot-centric. Basically, the IW with dot tricks. For those interested, https://glocktraining.com/files/MOS_IW_Course.pdf
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ST911 View Post
    The Glock MOS Instructor Workshop (specifically instructs what you guys are talking about. Their method is a slight elevation of the muzzle upon presentation with a drop into dot acquisition. Small movements, not the larger more commonly associated with casting/fishing. Very effective for the learner and more average shooter and similar to what has already been learned. Usable SHO, WHO, and irregular positions. I've seen it elsewhere as well.

    Straight-line/press-out presentations are attainable and probably a better method, but more time and reps than many will devote.

    Sidenote: The MOS IW was a good class, and a good example of dot-minded vs dot-centric. Basically, the IW with dot tricks. For those interested, https://glocktraining.com/files/MOS_IW_Course.pdf
    This ^^^. This is what @AsianJedi teaches as “the wave.” It’s been adopted into many other programs both with and without proper attribution. IME it can be subject to distortion via “the telephone game.”

    Nothing wrong with a good index or press out - but for those who don’t have that, or won’t put in the work to develop them, like many of my officers who recently transitioned to RDS, the consistency of the wave when properly executed, outweighs any real or perceived disadvantage.

    Regarding the “small movements” @ST911 mentioned, for myself, with full size optics, the dot is starting at 12 o’clock in the window, rather than dropping from off window, with the last adjustments made while pressing out.
    Last edited by HCM; 07-07-2022 at 02:13 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ST911 View Post
    The Glock MOS Instructor Workshop (specifically instructs what you guys are talking about. Their method is a slight elevation of the muzzle upon presentation with a drop into dot acquisition. Small movements, not the larger more commonly associated with casting/fishing. Very effective for the learner and more average shooter and similar to what has already been learned. Usable SHO, WHO, and irregular positions. I've seen it elsewhere as well.

    Straight-line/press-out presentations are attainable and probably a better method, but more time and reps than many will devote.

    Sidenote: The MOS IW was a good class, and a good example of dot-minded vs dot-centric. Basically, the IW with dot tricks. For those interested, https://glocktraining.com/files/MOS_IW_Course.pdf

    Very interested in this course thank you.

  5. #25
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    In my opinion the best RDS training program is USPSA Carry Optics division. Dry and Live fire practice the skills that are tested on the stages you shoot, and you’ll improve quickly.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Triarii View Post
    Lasers make dry practice fun and without question improves your skills. You get immediate feedback in regards to accuracy and speed. As far as getting dot feedback as well, that absolutely still takes place. You know when your fundamentals break down, the laser just confirms it. Major LE units are now issuing them to recruits. Helped me tremendously.
    I would look at what high level competition shooters are doing not LE units. LE is typically years behind competition community in terms of advancing pistol skills and training.

    If it's fun and makes you dry fire, go for it. But nothing beats a shot timer and your pistol for a good dry fire setup

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantrill View Post
    In my opinion the best RDS training program is USPSA Carry Optics division. Dry and Live fire practice the skills that are tested on the stages you shoot, and you’ll improve quickly.
    100% agree

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    This ^^^. This is what @AsianJedi teaches as “the wave.” It’s been adopted into many other programs both with and without proper attribution. IME it can be subject to distortion via “the telephone game.”

    Nothing wrong with a good index or press out - but for those who don’t have that, or won’t put in the work to develop them, like many of my officers who recently transitioned to RDS, the consistency of the wave when properly executed, outweighs any real or perceived disadvantage.

    Regarding the “small movements” @ST911 mentioned, for myself, with full size optics, the dot is starting at 12 o’clock in the window, rather than dropping from off window, with the last adjustments made while pressing out.
    This is absolutely 100% correct.

    There’s nothing wrong with a compensation as long as it’s acknowledged as an actual compensation.

    It’s like watching windsocks at the target for long range shooting.

    Versus scanning the mirage angle at 6 points along the way.

  9. #29
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    @ST911
    @HCM

    Regarding wave… that’s what happens if I take my CZ index to a humpy Glock. Dot is in the upper 1/3 of the window and I have to bring it down.

    It leads to a noticeable decrease in speed and accuracy for me.

    Probably on the order of 0.05-0.10 to get the same hits.

    Totally serviceable if not pushing extreme efficiency.

    But… philosophically speaking, the “wave” likely evolved from the early years of small window carry dots and if I were to design a curriculum for quick transition without practice in 2022, I would probably use large window dots (like some agencies have done with SRO) or use a cuing reticle like the 509T ACSS.

    And teach a straight index without a wave.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triarii View Post
    It is wether it helps or not. I have a list of guys as long as my arm who gave up on dots because they couldn’t reliably pick it up. This is after years of iron shooting.
    It’s BECAUSE they were shooting irons for a while.

    My wife can pick up the dot after just a few weeks of intermittent dry.

    I took one of the guys you’re talking about that had given up on dots many time and I gave him drills and advice.

    And he crushed it after getting proper advice.

    https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/jc...hread.1875458/

    Also note that he cleaned the GSSF COF with multiple guns in the same day.

    He works in a prison and isn’t a “competition” shooter per se.

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    Last edited by JCN; 07-07-2022 at 06:35 PM.

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