RDS-specific Drill or Training Program?

[GJM]

My suggestion is to leave the BUIS off for the first month or so and go cold turkey in learning to find the dot.

[dogcaller]

My suggestion is to leave the BUIS off for the first month or so and go cold turkey in learning to find the dot.

I totally understand that thinking, but it’ll be a bit tricky in my case, with the LTT92 RDS.

I guess I could drift the front out…

[dogcaller]

@dogcaller

You’ll get all kinds of half assed advice from different people in their development, so that’s why I like the Max Michel program so much. You have a world class teacher and shooter that is in the prime of his ability. Not a has been or someone who did something 15 years ago.

I like Aaron Cowan’s “nose to backplate” advice on finding the dot on press out.

Here’s a video I just made on why porpoise draws are stupid.



My noob wife with the “nose to backplate” advice can do a non porpoise draw and find her dot just fine.

Thanks JCN, I appreciate it. I joined, as you suggested. Initial browsing doesn’t show much RDO-specific info, but I’m just starting to look.

[Utm]

Great tips from the posts above. Dry practice is the way. I have the Laserpet 2/LASERHIT system and I have thousands of draws on them. You need one of these systems they are worth their weight in gold.

1) You have to train your brain to stay target focused throughout the entire process. From the target ID to the presentation, trigger pull and whatever your process is getting back to the holster. It sounds simple, but I catch myself almost subconsciously shifting my focus from the target back to the optic at times. Possibly from shooting front-sight focus for so many years. I believe many shooters do this and don't even know there doing it. Don't "Hunt for the dot". Stay target focused. It can be trickier than it sounds.

2) "Drop from 12 o'clock". This helped me acquire the dot on presentation. You always want the dot to drop from 12 o'clock, so it falls into your view onto target reliably. An effective high draw, to a high presentation. You're driving the gun forward on an angle, as subtle as it needs to be, so that the dot drops from 12 o'clock right as you reach full extension. I believe Pat Mcnamara did a short Youtube vid on the technique.

3) Don't train for speed/complexity at first. Simple dry practice draws. Be smooth and work on the target focus/draw/dot acquisition.

4) I carry the ACRO P2. I like it a lot and it will stay as my primary optic, but in all honesty I've seen the Holosun 509 with the ACSS Vulcan reticle. It is a lot easier to pick up. Make sure you do your homework on dot choice.

5) Good chance that once you go dots you'll never go back. Good luck

Why do.you need the laser system when you have the dot? The dot tells you everything you need to know

[JCN]

Why do.you need the laser system when you have the dot? The dot tells you everything you need to know

Agree. I’ve never found a chamber laser that was accurate enough to make me want to count on it for training.

The only use for chamber laser systems (IMO) is when trying to train retention shots and other positions where you can’t physically see through the window.

@dogcaller regarding the Max Michel patreon program:

The program is designed for dot shooters in the mechanics of the draws and transitions.

Part of the discrepancy of what you’ll hear from various random shooters is because what works very well for excellent dot shooters (early up and straight-ish press out with early dot pick up) works very well when using irons… but many good iron draws don’t work with dots because of the need to get up early with dots but not with irons because you can start orienting with irons even when off plane if that makes sense.

I’m not sure if I explained that well so let me know and I can make a short video.

So the Max program will work for irons too, but it definitely works with dots which is key.

He also talks about dot sight pictures, intensity, zeroing, equipment, etc so everything is done with that context.

[Triarii]

Going to give a big “fuck no” to this one.
That’s a training wheel crutch to an inefficient draw.

It’s such a “no” that it even has a name: “fishing / casting” and is specifically derided by good shooters.

The gun comes from below so if you keep the muzzle presenting at the target the dot will come from slightly below.

If you drop from 12 o clock high you’re streaking the muzzle from above which is inefficient and induces angular momentum that adds slop.



Play it in slow motion if that helps.

Press out instead of drop down and you can get this kind of speed and accuracy.

The drop from 12 is critical as acquiring the dot can be tough when your shooting unconventional positions. Shoot 9 hole in full gear after running 100 yards. Room entries moving one handed. The drop ensures that the dot comes into focus reliably. It was taught to me by a pretty established instructor and really helped me find the dot when shooting more unconventional shooting positions. Not something I need to do with irons.

The laser just ensures proper control throughout the pull. It’s not for long distance. Set it and 10 feet, and work on drawing from concealment for speed/moving and shooting etc. it’s a great tool.
https://youtu.be/icYacDHBeJ0

Go to 3:45 on this Tier 1 video to see the “drop from 12” concept explained. I’ve never taken a class where it’s not taught.

[HCM]

So, this is an interesting one. I have friends and people I respect who don't think anything special needs to be done and I've got friends/those I respect who disagree.

Some thoughts based on what has worked in classes & feedback from others ...
- work your draw, the presentation in reverse. Instead of starting at the holster, start with the dot on target and being the gun back to blew your chin & then back on target, repeat. Then from where your hands to the dot on target, etc. Regularly add that into dry practice.
- dry practice & live fire occluded optic drills. I'll use blue painter's tape on the downrange side of the optic. Dominant eye sees the dot but not the target, the non-dom eye sees the target but not the dot. 90+% of the time the brain puts the images together and it breaks front sight focus.
- Add in the acquisition, re-acquisition of the dot when transitioning between targets, after reloads, stoppages, & the like.

My only comment on this is IME lighter colored masking tape ( cream / green) works better for occluded optic training than darker colors like the blue.

[Utm]

The drop from 12 is critical as acquiring the dot can be tough when your shooting unconventional positions. Shoot 9 hole in full gear after running 100 yards. Room entries moving one handed. The drop ensures that the dot comes into focus reliably. It was taught to me by a pretty established instructor and really helped me find the dot when shooting more unconventional shooting positions. Not something I need to do with irons.

The laser just ensures proper control throughout the pull. It’s not for long distance. Set it and 10 feet, and work on drawing from concealment for speed/moving and shooting etc. it’s a great tool.
https://youtu.be/icYacDHBeJ0

Go to 3:45 on this Tier 1 video to see the “drop from 12” concept explained. I’ve never taken a class where it’s not taught.

Relying on a laser can take away from your shot calling abilities. The feedback from the dot tells you whether you disturbed the dot when you pulled the trigger

[Triarii]

Relying on a laser can take away from your shot calling abilities. The feedback from the dot tells you whether you disturbed the dot when you pulled the trigger

Lasers make dry practice fun and without question improves your skills. You get immediate feedback in regards to accuracy and speed. As far as getting dot feedback as well, that absolutely still takes place. You know when your fundamentals break down, the laser just confirms it. Major LE units are now issuing them to recruits. Helped me tremendously.

[JCN]

The drop from 12 is critical as acquiring the dot can be tough when your shooting unconventional positions. Shoot 9 hole in full gear after running 100 yards. Room entries moving one handed. The drop ensures that the dot comes into focus reliably. It was taught to me by a pretty established instructor and really helped me find the dot when shooting more unconventional shooting positions. Not something I need to do with irons.

The laser just ensures proper control throughout the pull. It’s not for long distance. Set it and 10 feet, and work on drawing from concealment for speed/moving and shooting etc. it’s a great tool.
https://youtu.be/icYacDHBeJ0

Go to 3:45 on this Tier 1 video to see the “drop from 12” concept explained. I’ve never taken a class where it’s not taught.

Lasers make dry practice fun and without question improves your skills. You get immediate feedback in regards to accuracy and speed. As far as getting dot feedback as well, that absolutely still takes place. You know when your fundamentals break down, the laser just confirms it. Major LE units are now issuing them to recruits. Helped me tremendously.

Listen to what you’re saying.

Like I said, it’s a crutch for people in intermediate stages of development.

It’s not whether it helps or not.

It’s whether you’re better served getting a solid index that’s mechanically sound in ergonomics that you can hit with your eyes closed and not dependent on the dot at all.

You’re training an index that’s reliant on the dot.

Rather than an index that stands on its own.

If you want an idea of how much your crutch hurts you, take this drill.

Take you and someone who draws to index without dot drop.
Hand your guns to someone who has the option of turning your dot off or on. You don’t know and you can’t check before you holster.

Draw and put a round on target at 7 yards.

I will wager that the person who isn’t you will recognize their dot is off sooner and break the shot when they know they’re on target without relying on dot.

Any experienced competition dot shooter can give you an example of when they forgot to turn their dot on and still completed the drill or stage with it off… and didn’t do too far off of how they would normally.

Dot dropping is like recommending finding the dot from your irons.