Anyone CCW sometimes an iron sight handgun and sometimes one with a red dot?

[Snidely Whiplash]

Thank you everyone for sharing your experience and insights. I very much appreciate it.

I’m 54 years old, have four years as an infantryman in the late eighties, worked for thirteen years as a police officer (carried a four inch S&W revolver for years then a Beretta 92), and then didn’t shoot a firearm at all for about twenty years. I just renewed my interest in shooting and got my CCW two and a half years ago. Aside from long guns, which all of mine have optics, I’ve only been been familiar with iron sights on handguns. The red dots / optics on the long guns have shown me how beneficial they can be so I’m assuming there can be a similar benefit with red dots on handguns.

Trying to get up to speed on handgun red dots at times feels like trying to drink from a fire hose; It’s lot of information to take in and there’s no one local to me that has the experience and knowledge that this forum does for me to get advice from. I’m at the point where I’ll probably just have to commit to giving a handgun red dot a try.

My (latest) worry has been about routinely carrying two different sighting systems and I was wondering if others have experienced any issues with presenting a firearm and getting a sight picture they might not be expecting or have last practiced with. I worry if I have to draw my iron sight handgun I’ll be looking for a dot that’s not there and will hesitate as I adjust to the iron sights and vice versa.

[Snidely Whiplash]

I’m not sure if it’s a medical issue or just that I’m overly sensitive to heat but on hot days there’s no way I can wear an over shirt. I’m currently living in central Florida. My primary cover shirts are the very lightweight Eddie Bauer moisture wicking shirts. They are very thin and lightweight but on hot humid days it’s still too much for me wear over a t-shirt while outside. I wish I could carry the Glock every day but I just can’t.

I’d be really reluctant to add a red dot to the P365. Like others have posted, I can’t carry the P365 in blue jean shorts but it fits (size and weight) perfectly in basic cotton shorts front pocket in a Mika pocket holster. I do worry about the cut of the pocket opening snagging a red dot, lint accumulation in a red dot, and adding any additional weight. The standard P365 is right at the limit of what I’m willing to everyday and everywhere pocket carry; I don’t want to put myself in a position to skip carrying it because it’s “too heavy for this quick trip, too bulky just to walk down the street, etc”.

[RJ]

Thinking about your particular situation resonates with me. I don't have your .mil or LEO background, but I picked up a pistol for the first time at age 56 or so, about 7 or 8 years ago. I live around Sarasota.

I recently went through a weight transition from 218 to 178, carrying both IWB/OWB (before) and AIWB (after.)

When I was bigger, I carried a Glock 19 IWB. Holster was a JM CK. I always felt like the gun dragged down on my belt. Cover garment was a T-shirt or polo. During this period, I tried out a Mitch Rosen Upper Limit (a high riding, leather, straight drop holster). I carried this AOWB (appendix, but OWB). I really liked this carry. It allowed me to carry riding in the truck by sliding the holster slightly outboard. When walking the dog, or other activity, I could slide it inboard.

https://mitchrosen.com/products/express-line/

During this period, I also bought a Glock 26. It carried in the same Upper Limit holster. It was a bit lighter than the G19, and I carried it 12+1 with OEM mags.

I also ended up buying a Raven Concealment Perun. This is a ambi, configurable, polymer OWB holster. It could be set up just like the MR, but not being leather was lighter.

Either/both holsters were very satisfactory solutions.

I went on a low-carb diet about 18 months ago and dropped 30+ lbs to a size 34. During this transition, I went from iron sights to dots, and bought a G19 MOS and a few Sig P365 models (P365, P365XL, P365X). Out of the above, I now have only a G19 MOS with HS 507c and a P365X with HS 407k for carry.

I have a JM CK AIWB WC 2.5 for both the Glock and Sig. These days, I find AIWB VASTLY more comfortable than behind the hip carry. Of the two, I routinely prefer the Sig, despite the 12+1 being trumped by the Glock's 15+1. The Sig is that much smaller, that it gets carried, being honest. In fact I'm about ready to turn the Glock 19 MOS into another option (separate topic).

Expanding a bit on the P365X+JM Custom Kydex: for comfort without a undershirt, I've attached two Mastermind Tactics "Appendix Carry Pillows" with velcro to the back. The top one I've deflated (taken the stuffing out.) This acts as a cusion and is just a piece of fabric. The lower one I have left alone for the padding in my gentleman area. The combination of these two works extremely well.

Another comfort option is the "Melody Lauer Holster Hack". This is a Dr. Scholl's Women's Gel Heel insert, size M, attached via velcro to the upper inside of the holster shell. (this is how the gun/holster is set up in the picture below; you can just see the grey material of the Dr. Scholl's pad curve around the upper end of the slide and optic). This also helps comfort without an undershirt in FL.

For retention I've found the single DCC clip and wing claw work well. I really like the weighted Wilson Combat grip module. I did have to trim the beavertail a couple mm as it was fouling my draw. I'm a lefty.



Hope this helps.

[Darth_Uno]

I just haven’t made the jump for CCW. i certainly understand their value, but for civilian CCW, I don’t find it a necessity. - yet.

I agree. I usually carry a G19 with RMR, but I’ve got a lot of miles on my 19 with black rear/FO front and that goes in the holster a fair bit as well. (Whether you should carry with FO sights is another discussion.) The benefits of a red dot are beyond debate at this point; but I’ve yet to be convinced that irons put you at any significant disadvantage for most CC applications.

[Ndbbm]

I’d be really reluctant to add a red dot to the P365. Like others have posted, I can’t carry the P365 in blue jean shorts but it fits (size and weight) perfectly in basic cotton shorts front pocket in a Mika pocket holster. I do worry about the cut of the pocket opening snagging a red dot, lint accumulation in a red dot, and adding any additional weight. The standard P365 is right at the limit of what I’m willing to everyday and everywhere pocket carry; I don’t want to put myself in a position to skip carrying it because it’s “too heavy for this quick trip, too bulky just to walk down the street, etc”.

You could just get a spare 365 slide to put a dot on and just switch them out as you want to. I have no dot experience yet but that’s going to change whenever my scs shows up and probably for work later this year as well.

Jason

[1Rangemaster]

You could just get a spare 365 slide to put a dot on and just switch them out as you want to. I have no dot experience yet but that’s going to change whenever my scs shows up and probably for work later this year as well.

Jason

That’s a reasonable option, if one has the funds.

@Snidley Whiplash: it seems you’re answering your own question. If you are not confident in your gear/setup, that is not good. A dot gun does require some retraining, if you will, and for me, moderately consistent weekly dry fire.
I’ve just had a master eye issue come up recently. It will get fixed, but I quickly experimented with an “irons gun”, as the dot just bloomed to an unacceptable level. With the irons, I just switched over to other eye. Gonna do a little dry fire here on the 4th to see if dot works single eyed, but I have an alternative.
Stick with what works for you…

[D-der]

Just curious, I know it's not for everyone but, have you tried carrying the 365 AIWB ?
For me anyway it's far more comfortable than pocket carrying and you could conceal
a 365 with a 407 /507K under a T shirt, or perhaps with a Mastermind Covert or Enigma
set up.

[TCinVA]

Does anyone else go back and forth between CCW’s with iron sights and a red dot? Will switching from one to another cause me any issues? I’ve read that with red dots one focuses on the target and with irons the focus is on the front sight. I guess I’m worried about the initial focus point of two different sighting systems being an issue. Or maybe there are other concerns I should have?

The first struggle most encounter is finding the dot on presentation since the RDS mounted on a slide offers you a very, very narrow window in which you can see the dot. Iron sights give you some idea where the gun is in relation to your eye even when grossly misaligned because you can actually see the iron sights in your peripheral vision. The dot doesn't show up unless you're pretty dialed in.

There are a few keys for ensuring that the gun is presenting properly to your eye and those will work for shooting irons as well.

One key is presenting the gun level to the target. Todd Green, the founder of this forum, taught a deliberate "press out" process that helped people find their sights more reliably on the draw. His words are better than mine, so I encourage you to read the following link on his blog:

https://pistol-training.com/all-or-nothing-press-outs/

If you watch this video of him performing a press out (I recommend slowing the video to see it) you'll notice that he presents the gun with the front sight high. What he was doing was essentially putting the front sight on what he wanted to hit and he rotated the rear of the gun up to put the notch of the rear sight around the front sight:



With a dot, that will result in only seeing your dot at the last instant at essentially full extension. That tends to be insufficient time for most people to be comfortable making a shot.

If you revise the technique a little bit and drive the rear sight into your eyeline as quickly as possible, it causes the gun to present more flat so you have more time to see your sight picture with the front sight in the rear notch...or, if you are running a dot, you can see the dot much, much earlier and refine from there.

Todd's health problems sidelined him from doing any serious pistol work (his elbow eventually had to be replaced because cancer destroyed the joint) as the RDS pistol was rising in popularity. Had Todd not been distracted from further development by the cancer that would ultimately take him from us, he'd have worked with the dot and made the same refinement in the way he presented the gun that I described: Driving the rear sight into the eyeline as quickly as possible instead of presenting with his front sight proud. That would have allowed him to find the dot.

The L shaped (or sometimes described as J shaped once people get familiar with the press out and become more efficient) press-out draw combined with some other refinements on technique helps people reliably find sights on presentation in a useful time frame.

Most people do not have a carefully built draw that has thought through the circumstances they are going to be using it in. The very few who have carefully built their draw are usually enthusiasts and competitors. Competitors use more of an "index" draw that relies on significant amounts of dryfire to build and sustain. Without that sort of work I find people can't really do an index draw, especially with the complications of concealment.

If you work on the level press out, you'll be able to reliably find your irons or an optic at your speed.

Where I find the most impact on my shooting between dots and irons is when trying to shoot a multiple shot sequence at maximum speed. In other words, if I'm shooting sub 1/4 second splits (.25 second or less per shot) I have a harder time seeing the irons to time the next shot, so I end up pushing some shots high because I got ahead of my recoil control and broke a shot with the sight still elevated well outside the notch. And this really only manifests on very small targets I'm trying to shoot at maximum speed. If I slow down to a pace of about a third of a second per shot, I see a settled sight and can make a very precise called shot.

The dot is a glowing ball that you can see very easily even in recoil (assuming your grip is good) and you can literally watch it bounce around the target area without any real effort. It's a lot like a laser in that respect.

Does that difference have any significant implications for defensive shooting? None that I can see. So I don't worry about it.

Of course, that's on a similar pistol carried a similar way. There's a pretty big difference in everything on a typical 9mm Glock and a J frame, so there are more differences in performance when I'm using the J frame pocket gun vs. a duty sized semi-auto.

[TCinVA]

I’d be really reluctant to add a red dot to the P365. Like others have posted, I can’t carry the P365 in blue jean shorts but it fits (size and weight) perfectly in basic cotton shorts front pocket in a Mika pocket holster. I do worry about the cut of the pocket opening snagging a red dot, lint accumulation in a red dot, and adding any additional weight. The standard P365 is right at the limit of what I’m willing to everyday and everywhere pocket carry; I don’t want to put myself in a position to skip carrying it because it’s “too heavy for this quick trip, too bulky just to walk down the street, etc”.

In general I find that semi-autos are sub-optimal for carry in my pockets...even small ones. I tried a bunch and gave up some time ago, sticking with a J frame for that duty because of how hard it was to get a proper grip on the gun in the pocket and how often it would snag attempting to draw it.

I can't see an RDS mounted to the slide making pocket carry better, personally.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Just personally, I carry a G26 Gen 3 with Trijicon night sights for EDC, OWB (my body type) or a J frame if dress necessitates pocket carry or just puttering around the yard. It's a 642 with CT laser grip or a 432 with its integral irons. With the latter, I painted the front sight orange. It's been a Gen 4 G17 with irons for USPSA and IDPA for years (sometimes a 1911 with three dot irons or an exotic SW 632 with a fiber optic front sight as an 'outlaw' club match gun - I've carried these two maybe three times each, just because).

I recently have put together a G17 with an SRO but am nowhere near being instinctive with. Anyway, it is too big for me (personal view) for EDC. Also, AIWB doesn't appeal to me and I'll skip that discussion.

I shoot irons pretty well. In USPSA I usually shoot alphas and charlies. I'll see how the RDS works out. I doubt that I will go to the expense of getting an RDS G26 or other smaller Glock. Training since 1994 with irons seems good enough but that is an empirical question to be tested.

I have a G42 - I don't like it for pocket carry as much as the Js for the grip issue. I have worn it on my belt when my old damn back acted up.

Anyway, to whine, concealed carry will become impractical in Sept. due to the new NYS laws. So why get anything new?