Long Gun Optics Choice: Training-specific use case

[ASH556]

Tailoring the optic to both the use case and the gun's capabilities is the voodoo magic of selecting the right carbine optic. Hundreds of articles have been written about it and thousands upon thousands of internet discussions have been had. Currently I'm all up in my own head about it and just need some additional perspective to help get me over the hump. Alright, here goes:

My use case for an AR15 is 2A in nature. By that I mean I'm not a LEO on patrol or a MIL guy deployed overseas. I also enjoy hunting Whitetail with a suppressed AR for both myself and my kids. My primary AR is currently an SBR with a 11.5" Colt HRT barrel (heavier SOCOM weight), NX8 + RMR for optics, and a suppressor. I like the shorter barrel for use with a can and with 62gr Gold Dot it's a pretty effective system balancing size and weight against performance.

I wanted another AR so I got the stuff to put one together. I also wanted a non-NFA option to use as a somewhat "beater" training gun. This time I went with a Colt 14.5" SOCOM barrel. It's currently at ADCO to get the AAC 51T FH pinned and welded. I've had several rifles in this basic configuration in the past and like it a lot. It's not ideal with the can on as it gets pretty long and heavy, but not totally out of the question; especially outside.

My initial thought was to put an EXPS 3-0 Eotech on the training gun. I got one on an industry deal so the price was attractive and they're a decent optic. Then I started thinking. I've had a few Eotech's in the past and always immediately take them off and trade them for an Aimpoint. Subconciously the battery life and durability are issues. I know in my brain a lot of this was solved with the XPS line, but I still struggle. Also, I've had great success with Aimpoints. Also, an Aimpoint micro is lighter and has much better battery life. Finally, because of my extensive trigger time behind an Aimpoint, I'm very comfortable with it and also feel that the single dot translates well between Aimpoint and the RMR's that I run on my pistols as well as on my 11.5.

Then enters the good idea fairy: "Hey, you've got a 14.5" barrel on that thing, which means more velocity, which means greater distance, so you should put something magnified on there. I've had several TA11's and I really enjoy that optic as a good all-around thing. It sucks for indoors and close speed, but beyond 25yds things start to even out. Beyond that there are some mid-range LPVO options.

Back to use case, while this will primarily be a training gun, I don't own any "just range guns." Everything is "duty" rated. From that perspective, the Aimpoint and ACOG shine. Maybe the Eotech does too. Probably not a budget LPVO.

Current 11.5 config:

Untitled by ASH556, on Flickr

Some previous configs to give an idea of what I have experience with:

Untitled by ASH556, on Flickr
Untitled by ASH556, on Flickr
Untitled by ASH556, on Flickr
Untitled by ASH556, on Flickr
Untitled by ASH556, on Flickr
Untitled by ASH556, on Flickr
Untitled by ASH556, on Flickr

[Casey]

For me, a "training gun" would be a duplicate to a carry gun or home defense gun, which I'd have no qualms about abusing, whereas the carry/HD gun gets shot enough to confirm reliability, but otherwise gets treated gently because I don't want to be worried about parts failure or stoppage due to lack of upkeep. If I'm going to spend any significant amount of time training with a particular gun, I'd want it to mirror what I expect to use in a defensive situation, so that I'm not getting reps on one platform and then switching to something notably different when playing for keeps. With that in mind, I'd vote for a duplicate to your primary AR, or as close as you can get within your budget.

[Caballoflaco]

Since it’s not on your poll, is there any reason you don’t want to experiment with an aimpoint and magnifier?

[Nephrology]

You can find very nice LPVOs for less than the cost of an Eotech + magnifier/TA11.

My last LPVO purchase was a Gen 2 Razor 1-6 for just about $1k total new in box. With decent mount that's about the price of a new TA11.

[HCM]

Agree a “training gun” = a duplicate (or near duplicate) of your primary.

However it sounds like you want something different.

If you don’t replicate the optics on your current gun, then move the 1-8 set up to the 14.5” and set up the 11.5 as an RDS gun.

For somethings RDS has advantages. A complimentary pair has as many pros as mirror duplicates.

The current EO Techs are good as long as you don’t have a “immediate” grab and go need like a patrol rifle. The new EO Tech magnifiers are worth a look.

[rcbusmc24]

I like EO Techs on Unity risers for NVG usage otherwise I perfer to use Aimpoints on my short rifles. On the some of the 14.5 and 16 inch barreled ones I do have LPVO's. Two have Vortex Razor HD's. One a NF NX8, one a Trijicon Credo. I also have one of the older Leupold 1.5-5 MR/Ts mounted on one of my AUGs. Of all the LVPOs I think I prefer the NX8 the most though the Razors seem like they have a slightly bigger eyebox. For anything "real" I'd ever have to do in my retired .mil/ gun guy life with a AR, I am confident that one of my Aimpoint equipped rifles is more than adequate. Everything else is duty grade and fun but honestly really just for larping at this point...at least for me.

[Casual Friday]

Tailoring the optic to both the use case and the gun's capabilities is the voodoo magic of selecting the right carbine optic. Hundreds of articles have been written about it and thousands upon thousands of internet discussions have been had. Currently I'm all up in my own head about it and just need some additional perspective to help get me over the hump.

Life got a whole lot simpler for me when I gave in and accepted the fact that a MK18/6933 with a $400 Aimpoint Pro, a magnifier on a QD mount, and a YHM Turbo was the solution to 99.9875% of the problems that I could ever encounter. My friend JD who's a meat eatin' face shooter believes that a LPVO is for people who can't decide if they need a red dot or a magnified optic. He either runs Eotechs/Aimpoints with magnifiers or real magnified optics with piggybacked red dots. My house gun and my training gun are setup mostly identical, but they have different quad rails. The location of the light is the same though.

I snipped your post and bolded the one part that stuck out to me. I remember when you stepped away from the forum for like a year and sold a bunch of your guns because you felt like you were expending too much mental energy on this stuff and it was affecting other areas of your life. That hit home with me, because you and me are a lot alike. I don't know if I ever actually told you this but that thread a couple years ago caused me to reprioritize and simplify. I think you're falling back on old ways. I read your thread about swapping your 10.3 for a heavy 11.5 barrel and being somewhat disappointed that it didn't net you the results that you'd hoped for. I used to do the same thing, constantly thinking Should I switch to this rail? I really think this light mount would be better than this other one that's worked well for me for years. I think I might sell this Aimpoint H1 and buy a T1 because it has night vision capabilities, even though I don't have night vision. This B5 Bravo stock is nice, but it doesn't have a locking mechanism like the CTR, I should probably sell it for a loss and buy a CTR even though I've already had one and sold it at a loss to buy the B5 or some other stock. Swapping out, changing this, rezeroing, just to realize that I wasn't really gaining anything by doing so, it all got so tiresome. Then I'd think of something else that I could upgrade and here we go again. I nearly drove myself bonkers over-analyzing my first suppressor purchase. This stuff will consume me if I allow it to. I hope you don't take offense to any of this, because that wasn't my intent. I just know what it's like to be constantly chasing that next best setup just over the horizon.

[ASH556]

Life got a whole lot simpler for me when I gave in and accepted the fact that a MK18/6933 with a $400 Aimpoint Pro, a magnifier on a QD mount, and a YHM Turbo was the solution to 99.9875% of the problems that I could ever encounter. My friend JD who's a meat eatin' face shooter believes that a LPVO is for people who can't decide if they need a red dot or a magnified optic. He either runs Eotechs/Aimpoints with magnifiers or real magnified optics with piggybacked red dots. My house gun and my training gun are setup mostly identical, but they have different quad rails. The location of the light is the same though.

I snipped your post and bolded the one part that stuck out to me. I remember when you stepped away from the forum for like a year and sold a bunch of your guns because you felt like you were expending too much mental energy on this stuff and it was affecting other areas of your life. That hit home with me, because you and me are a lot alike. I don't know if I ever actually told you this but that thread a couple years ago caused me to reprioritize and simplify. I think you're falling back on old ways. I read your thread about swapping your 10.3 for a heavy 11.5 barrel and being somewhat disappointed that it didn't net you the results that you'd hoped for. I used to do the same thing, constantly thinking Should I switch to this rail? I really think this light mount would be better than this other one that's worked well for me for years. I think I might sell this Aimpoint H1 and buy a T1 because it has night vision capabilities, even though I don't have night vision. This B5 Bravo stock is nice, but it doesn't have a locking mechanism like the CTR, I should probably sell it for a loss and buy a CTR even though I've already had one and sold it at a loss to buy the B5 or some other stock. Swapping out, changing this, rezeroing, just to realize that I wasn't really gaining anything by doing so, it all got so tiresome. Then I'd think of something else that I could upgrade and here we go again. I nearly drove myself bonkers over-analyzing my first suppressor purchase. This stuff will consume me if I allow it to. I hope you don't take offense to any of this, because that wasn't my intent. I just know what it's like to be constantly chasing that next best setup just over the horizon.

GREAT words brother! I really appreciate you taking the time to share that. I have some additional thoughts and feedback I'll share next week from an actual keyboard, but wanted to take the time to appreciate this. Happy 4th everyone!

[WobblyPossum]

Life got a whole lot simpler for me when I gave in and accepted the fact that a MK18/6933 with a $400 Aimpoint Pro, a magnifier on a QD mount, and a YHM Turbo was the solution to 99.9875% of the problems that I could ever encounter. My friend JD who's a meat eatin' face shooter believes that a LPVO is for people who can't decide if they need a red dot or a magnified optic. He either runs Eotechs/Aimpoints with magnifiers or real magnified optics with piggybacked red dots. My house gun and my training gun are setup mostly identical, but they have different quad rails. The location of the light is the same though.

I snipped your post and bolded the one part that stuck out to me. I remember when you stepped away from the forum for like a year and sold a bunch of your guns because you felt like you were expending too much mental energy on this stuff and it was affecting other areas of your life. That hit home with me, because you and me are a lot alike. I don't know if I ever actually told you this but that thread a couple years ago caused me to reprioritize and simplify. I think you're falling back on old ways. I read your thread about swapping your 10.3 for a heavy 11.5 barrel and being somewhat disappointed that it didn't net you the results that you'd hoped for. I used to do the same thing, constantly thinking Should I switch to this rail? I really think this light mount would be better than this other one that's worked well for me for years. I think I might sell this Aimpoint H1 and buy a T1 because it has night vision capabilities, even though I don't have night vision. This B5 Bravo stock is nice, but it doesn't have a locking mechanism like the CTR, I should probably sell it for a loss and buy a CTR even though I've already had one and sold it at a loss to buy the B5 or some other stock. Swapping out, changing this, rezeroing, just to realize that I wasn't really gaining anything by doing so, it all got so tiresome. Then I'd think of something else that I could upgrade and here we go again. I nearly drove myself bonkers over-analyzing my first suppressor purchase. This stuff will consume me if I allow it to. I hope you don't take offense to any of this, because that wasn't my intent. I just know what it's like to be constantly chasing that next best setup just over the horizon.

I just want to say that this resonates with me as well. I used become consumed with the minutiae of little accessories and would waste time and money changing things that I found out didn’t improve performance. Eventually I came to the realization that pretty much every gun I had that wasn’t a Glock 19, a Glock 26, or a gun I was required to use at work, was just for fun. I stopped really caring as much after that. I’d set up a long gun in what I considered an acceptable configuration, and then I’d just have fun shooting it and would devote limited time and emotional energy on something more important. I still play Barbie with some guns but it’s from a point of view of trying something that might be fun for a bit as opposed to chasing incremental performance improvements and efficiencies of configuration.

[breakingtime91]

Acog and offset red dot is the way to go for a general purpose infantry rifle. Durable, wide field of view, quick, and the red dot handles 50 yards and in easy peasy.