Best .38 Ammo out of a 3-inch .38 revolver

[DanTheWolfman]

a balancing reminder quote from DrGkr on the issue of 2" and under snub loads
"Currently, the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP, Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B), and Barnes 110 gr XPB all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading) offer the most reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 sp 2” BUG; Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense loads also offer good performance out of 2" barrel revolvers."

Also on that note,l et me ask you all a question. I can't find the 135+p short barreled Gold Dot to purchase, but I can find the 125 Plus P Gold Dot. I assume he left it out as it didn't perform as well from 2" and unders snubs? Tests I have seen it often plugged w/ denim. Just wondering if anyone knows more....like it does perform well 4" but doesn't expand 2" so 3" is unknown territory on the 125 plus p gold dot .38 load?

[DanTheWolfman]

I've compiled some 3" numbers that may be helpful to some, w/ a few 2" and 4" numbers given here and there to compare to. As for me reporting the Similar Results of 4-layer DENIM +Medium Density Fiberboard testing compared to Official 4-layer FBI testing as it relates to penetration, expansion, and overall Tissue Crush Adj. Vol. values if you want to ignore that or be overtly rude I guess go ahead, but I would call it a decent guess on unknown loads or giving an idea in different barrel lengths when cross referencing Official Manufacturer data and DrGkr tests.

Hello....and Yes...I am this borderline Spectrum nerdy....
I've been wanting an 856 Defender for awhile, love 3" wheelies which I have in .357...I paid more attention to .357 ballistics than .38 to an extent in the past, and I am also looking at .357 Charter Professional 3" .357 so wanted to get more 3" specific data (though yes gun manufacturer- and gun to gun can have different speed barrels but still hard to compile 3" data).

Anyways, I got data out of my friend Gun Sam's testing with his steel framed 856 Defender External Ballistics ie Velocity chrono averages & thought some may like real world numbers from one compiled. Given the lots of interest in the old 856 thread, and some attention in my own Defender/Executive 3" thread.......I thought some other people may want this data to figure out carry loads or to see some differences vs 2" and 4" barrels.

I know some only worry about penetration and not expansion and will stick with 148 WC or 158 SWCHP's with velocity too low and lead too hard they won't expand even from a 3" barrel. However, for carry I want something that actually expands and know a lot of people do as well.

Oh I know how bad people want to shut down the data, but as I have shown, his very particular 4 layer Denim Testing protocol WHILE adding a 1/4" Medium Density Fiber board 3" in has compared very closely to the Official REAL Gel 4 layer Testing in ALL Pistol Calibers from Vista and Hornady...with similar enough penetration and expansion numbers to give very close Tissue Crush Value Numbers....that seems to equate within decent enough % difference than one would get from different barrel lengths or lot to lot differences. Not official enough for you? Well OK then, but given loads we don't have data on, and especially in .38 (and particularly in 3") where there is very little data, I think that it is useful information to make educated guesses to real world performance.

I have given Hornady's Official 4 layer Real Gel and Vista's Speer/Federal Official Real Gel 4 layer data before which is comparable to what is shown here with the Gold Dot and Critical Defense loads.

[DanTheWolfman]

Please no one delete this data it takes awhile to compile and I want a reference for myself and others. Thank you.
Don't know POA/POI for the Defenders...and if with night sight (& with which type of hold) or regular ramp installed...some reporting similar to 130 fmj, others reporting closer to 158 standard pressure pud loads....so POI should be figured out for your particular Revo but this might be helpful in pointing a direction in carry ammo selection especially during Ammogaddon crunches where favorite loads may be hard to come by.

3" Steel Taurus 856 Defender unless otherwise noted

THESE 3 Loads tested particularly good from the Taurus 3" steel 856 Defender
135 +P Gold Dot Short Barrel 913 fps 5-shot Avg. 250 ft. lbs. ME
MDF Results 13.5" Pen .50 Exp.

Critical Defense 110+P This load tested 2 different days Day 1 1036 fps avg. 262 ft. lbs. ME , Day 2 1039 fps 264 ft. lbs. ME (2" 605 for comparison 952 fps 221 ME)
Day 1 MDF Results 12.25" Pen .527 Exp Day 2 MDF Results 13" .513 Exp

Ultimate Defense FULL SIZE 125+P 967 Avg 259 ft. lbs. ME
MDF Results 11.5" Pen approximately .60 avg Exp (1 petal made Max larger)

This common load expanded decently well, but wonder if most 110+P loads OTHER than Critical Defense tended to under penetrate in more official testing in the past
Remington HTP 110+P 1068 fps avg 279 ft. lbs. ME (2" 605 for comparison 980 fps 235 ME)
MDF Results 12.25" Pen .488 Exp

These loads did not expand well, even from the 3" barrel
Federal Punch 120+P 1056 fps avg 297 ft. lbs ME
MDF Results 16.75" Pen app .42 Exp (obviously would like to see multiple sources of REAL Calibrated Gel Testing on this one)

Underwood 125+P w/XTP Bullet 1132 fps avg 356 ft. lbs ME
(the UD 125 Gold Dot/Bonded would perform MUCH better but out of stock & not tested in 3"-Does anyone here have any of them or tested them?)
MDF Results 21" Pen w/ little expansion deformation

Winchester SuperX Silvertip 125+P 904 fps avg 227 ft. lbs. ME
MDF Results 16.5" .378

HTP 158+P Lead HP 870 fps avg 265 ft. lbs. ME
MDF Results 13.5" .363


To Be Continued with loads that would perform well both standard and +p pressure FBI Style 158 Loads but with/Soft Lead SWCHP from both Underwood & Buffalo Bore

[DanTheWolfman]

These Loads were tested in either 1 7/8" or 2" barrels and 4" barrels so an educated guess on 3" performance can be had. Buffalo Bore Barnes Tac-XP loads should also be considered though expensive.
These loads from a 3" barrel turn a .38+P into low end 2" .357 Mag territory. Remember, the 158 LSWCHP loaded by both Underwood & Buffalo Bore are Softer lead than previous "FBI" or "Chicago" loadings.....so better on direct biped hits...less better on barriers

Underwood Standard Pressure 158 LSWCHP Rated by Underwood at 980 fps-LOW RECOIL
Gun Sam 1 7/8" 743 fps 194 ft. lbs. ME Good Penetration and Expansion Low Recoil even from LW snub
4" 686 823 fps 238 ft. lbs. ME

Reviewer Posted these numbers for Underwood 158+P LSWCHP Rated at 1160 fps Medium-Heavy Recoil
2" 605 1052 fps 388 ft. lbs. ME stated 2" 3-Layer Clear Gel Results of 14.75" .621
4" 586 1170 fps 480 ft. lbs. ME

Buffalo Bore 158 Standard Pressure LSWCHP Manageable Recoil
Buffalo Bore Reports
2" 854 fps 256 ft. lbs. ME Gun Sam 2" 605 916 fps 294 ft. lbs. ME MDF Results 12" Pen .622 Exp
2.5" 871 fps 266 ft. lbs. ME
3" 930 fps 303 ft. lbs. ME
4" 979 fps 336 ft. lbs. ME Gun Sam 4" 686 1014 fps 316 ft. lbs. ME MDF Results 13.25" Pen .633 Exp

Buffalo Bore 158 +P LSWCHP: HEAVY Recoil & LOUD Powerful Load
Buffalo Bore Reports
2" 1040 fps 379 ft. lbs. ME Gun Sam 2" 605 1060 fps 394 ft. lbs. ME MDF Results 14.5" Pen .621 Exp
2.5" 1059 fps 393 ft. lbs. ME
3" 1143 fps 458 ft. lbs. ME
4" 1162 474 ft. lbs. ME Gun Sam 4" 686 1189 fps 496 ft. lbs. ME MDF Results 17.5" Pen .641 Exp


And a balancing reminder quote from DrGkr on the issue of 2" and under snub loads
"Currently, the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP, Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B), and Barnes 110 gr XPB all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading) offer the most reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 sp 2” BUG; Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense loads also offer good performance out of 2" barrel revolvers."

Also on that note, I can't find the 135+p short barreled Gold Dot to purchase, but I can find the 125 Plus P Gold Dot. I assume he left it out as it didn't perform as well from snubs? Tests I have seen were it plugged w/ denim. Just wondering if anyone knows more....like it does perform well 4" but doesn't expand 2" so 3" is unknown territory on the 125 plus p gold dot .38 load?

[DanTheWolfman]

Also, here are some FBI Tests Results I came about. Old 4-Layer Testing
FBI TEST 7/27/90 Federal 125 grain sjhp 3" S&W13=1265 Velocity 4 layer 11.75" .51.
FBI TEST 2/28/91 Federal 158 grain sjhp S&W19 4"=1200 fps 4 layer 15.9" .64=5.12 cu in" Tissue Crush.

I believe the avg Human male body 6" wide front to back, 7.9" diagonally to heart from different angles, 9.3" various angles through entire body, 16.3" avg shoulder width is that correct?

Also, this has 1989 FBI data in it...including from 3" S&W M13's w/ both .38 and .357 though if those are 4-layer test results or more likely an Averaging of all tests I am not sure it states. Also, there Tissue Crush Adj Vol numbers seem way low...if those are somehow accurate please explain how to get such.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...bi-ammo-tests/

Should be noted that the FBI approved .357 magnum load for their 3" M13's was the 145 gr Silvertip

Also, the approved load for the especially tight toleranced special 3" (not typical 2 3/4") GS33 Ruger Six for the Postal Service Inspectors was the Federal 125 sjhp

[03RN]

To be clear... All those penetration numbers are with clear gel.

[revchuck38]

@DanTheWolfman - First, Thanks! That was a lot of work. Some notes...

On this forum, any data that comes from other than "official" 10% ordnance gel will get the side-eye. Good, bad, or indifferent, it is what it is. Also on this forum, expansion is considered nice to have, but adequate penetration is considered necessary and non-negotiable. That's why the default recommendation for snubby ammo on this forum tends to be a full wadcutter - it doesn't expand, but it penetrates 14-16". I understand that the consensus on other forums may be different.

The link you gave didn't work for me. A short search yielded this one which does. Note that the three .38 LHP loads are pretty close in performance. These are known collectively as the "FBI load", and one or the other was the standard issue for agents for their 3" M13s. Ed Mireles used the R-P version to end the famous "Miami shootout". It was a common load for many LE agencies of the time because it worked and it wasn't a .357 Magnum. My understanding is that the .357 Silvertip load was approved for a very limited number of agents. If you've never shot a full-power .357 load from a K frame, it's pretty spicy. A 50-round qual wouldn't be much fun.

The FBI load also shot to the sights on the fixed-sight revolvers of the time. As you noted, this can be an issue in ammo choice. In general, older fixed-sight revolvers need 148-158-grain ammo; my '72 production Detective Special needs 125-130-grain ammo to hit POA while my S&W M49 produced about the same time needs the heavier bullets. My 642 needs the lighter bullets, and my 3" and 4" M10s and my Colt Official Police need the heavier ones.

The R-P LHP load has been pretty consistent over time. Your friend got 870 fps from his gun, the FBI test got 871, and it runs 855 from my 3" M10. It's what I carry in my M10s.

[PNWTO]

Are we really doing tissue crush again?

https://giphy.com/gifs/season-13-the...eiuwmhZlkrVOkU

[DanTheWolfman]

@DanTheWolfman - First, Thanks! That was a lot of work. Some notes...

On this forum, any data that comes from other than "official" 10% ordnance gel will get the side-eye. Good, bad, or indifferent, it is what it is. Also on this forum, expansion is considered nice to have, but adequate penetration is considered necessary and non-negotiable. That's why the default recommendation for snubby ammo on this forum tends to be a full wadcutter - it doesn't expand, but it penetrates 14-16". I understand that the consensus on other forums may be different.

The link you gave didn't work for me. A short search yielded this one which does. Note that the three .38 LHP loads are pretty close in performance. These are known collectively as the "FBI load", and one or the other was the standard issue for agents for their 3" M13s. Ed Mireles used the R-P version to end the famous "Miami shootout". It was a common load for many LE agencies of the time because it worked and it wasn't a .357 Magnum. My understanding is that the .357 Silvertip load was approved for a very limited number of agents. If you've never shot a full-power .357 load from a K frame, it's pretty spicy. A 50-round qual wouldn't be much fun.

The FBI load also shot to the sights on the fixed-sight revolvers of the time. As you noted, this can be an issue in ammo choice. In general, older fixed-sight revolvers need 148-158-grain ammo; my '72 production Detective Special needs 125-130-grain ammo to hit POA while my S&W M49 produced about the same time needs the heavier bullets. My 642 needs the lighter bullets, and my 3" and 4" M10s and my Colt Official Police need the heavier ones.

The R-P LHP load has been pretty consistent over time. Your friend got 870 fps from his gun, the FBI test got 871, and it runs 855 from my 3" M10. It's what I carry in my M10s.

You're welcome. I've done stuff on a couple different classic snub .38s, and fired the hot Federal 125 and 158 sjhp rapid fire listed above, as well as Critical Duty & the 145 Winchester loads from two 3" mags 34.5 and 37 ounce Revos.

[Lester Polfus]

To be clear... All those penetration numbers are with clear gel.

Yes. I think it's important to be transparent about that.