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Thread: RFI - Suggestions for a new PCC

  1. #1

    RFI - Suggestions for a new PCC

    There is a definite void in my collection. I have a competitive pistol (not just one that meets the criteria) in every division, but PCC. I do have a CX4, but come on, trigger and magwell - yuck.

    I’m looking for a solid, competitive choice for a PCC gun. Something with a track record. Not the new hotness, potentially the next greatest thing. My instinct is to start with JP, since it’s a name I recognize from back when I was more engaged. Not even sure what is out there, kind of starting from scratch. Also, nothing finicky. I’m blessed with an open gun that runs as good as any Glock in my house. Looking to keep that pattern.

    Also, no kits. Looking for something mostly ready to go (dot sold separately)

    TIA.

  2. #2
    As far as I am aware the JP-5 is still indefinitely delayed unobtainium.

    The MPX seems to be the go-to. I think it is so far the only gas-operated PCC on the market? A gas-operated PCC will by necessity have much less recoil than the simple blowback PCCs.

  3. #3
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    There's also a fair amount of love for the CZ Skorpion Evo III, especially in the aftermarket.

    True, it's a straight blowback gun, but it's not like the thing kicks as hard as a 5.56 rifle.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by jellydonut View Post
    As far as I am aware the JP-5 is still indefinitely delayed unobtainium.

    The MPX seems to be the go-to. I think it is so far the only gas-operated PCC on the market? A gas-operated PCC will by necessity have much less recoil than the simple blowback PCCs.
    The GMR-15 is stock at shooters connection for $1819.00.

    I had a GMR-13 and sold it off. I might buy a JP-5 or GMR-15 soon. They are fun rifles for beginners and kids to mess with anyway. I think the 15 is still considered a top of line rifle. JP is my hometown and there are local gunshops that stock their stuff. If you really want a JP-5 PM me and I can give you a place to try. I'm no PCC expert, but if you aren't that serious about it I don't know if it's worth paying double for it over the GMR-15 anyway.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by bofe954 View Post
    The GMR-15 is stock at shooters connection for $1819.00.

    I had a GMR-13 and sold it off. I might buy a JP-5 or GMR-15 soon. They are fun rifles for beginners and kids to mess with anyway. I think the 15 is still considered a top of line rifle. JP is my hometown and there are local gunshops that stock their stuff. If you really want a JP-5 PM me and I can give you a place to try. I'm no PCC expert, but if you aren't that serious about it I don't know if it's worth paying double for it over the GMR-15 anyway.
    Thanks for the offer. I’ll let you know.

    I’m not sure how serious, I’ll have to play to know. I’ve been pretty serious in other divisions, except revolver.

  6. #6
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    I put mine together from parts in 2017 and competed with it for almost a year when the division was provisional bc I was PCC-curious. I still get it out now and then for a change of pace at local matches. PCC is a fun division, plus there is the option of shooting it in USPSA 2-Gun matches paired with a pistol.

    I know you said you didn’t want a kit gun. But there were a few things to consider when diving into PCC (either full gun or a parts gun).

    1. If going with an AR pattern PCC do you want Glock or Colt SMG style mags? Can’t say one is any better than the other, but back when I built mine if you wanted last-round-bolt-hold-open you pretty much had to go with Colt SMG mags. I think since then manufacturers have made lowers w/ Glock mags that offer LRBHO. Not that it makes much if any difference in PCC division as far as I can see unlike Limited or Open where people disable their followers to prevent slide lock. I will say that Colt mags have some hard and sharp corners…. Colt SMG mags seat more at a 90 deg angle than Glock mag AR-9s. But again, can’t see how this matters in a comp gun.

    2. 16” barrel or shorter? The reason I ask is ammo. Out of a 16.1” bbl my AR-9 chrono’d in the high 140PF using ammo that makes about 130PF out of my pistols. So for a while there I was loading 9mm specifically for my PCC that chrono’d 130-ish PF. It was kind of a PITA to maintain two loads of 9mm. Granted, if you want to, Eley offers a factory 9mm rnd that is supposed to be 130-ish PF out of a 16” PCC barrel under the USPSA certified match ammo program. The same Eley ammo is supposedly <125PF out of a 4-5” pistol.

    3. Some AR-9s are quiet, to the point where the RO has to be super close to pick up the last shot. Case in point, my AR-9 with the above 16” barrel and an A2 birdcage flash hider was sufficiently quiet that sometimes my PACT III shot timer, when clipped to my belt, didn’t pick up all the shots during practice and I could shoot it outdoors without hearing pro. I experienced numerous reshoots during matches when the shot timer didn’t pick up my last shot. I’ve since switched out barrels to a Taccom barrel that has a 5.5” barrel inside a 16.1” shroud, and have not had any issues with it being too quiet. Bonus was I could use my regular match pistol ammo. Plus I lost about 1/2 lb of weight out at the muzzle and the gun balances really nicely one-handed.

    4. AR-9’s are blowback, so there is some dot bounce during recoil. I have not shot the JP-5 or the CMMG delayed blow-back design ARs, but the recoil on the Sig PCC’s is noticeably different than AR-9’s. I know a lot of people say big-whoopie-sh!t it’s a 9mm, but when trying to go fast on a partial target at 15+ yds, it’d be nice if there wasn’t so much dot bounce from the blow-back recoil.

    5. I played around a bunch with different buffer springs and buffer weights back in 2017 when all the kids where experimenting with the best combo to reduce dot bounce. I finally landed on the JP bcg and JP silent captured spring kit, and spent the rest of my time tuning my load to be the lightest possible recoil. Plus not having the sproiiinnnng in the buffer tube from the buffer spring was nice.

    6. I went with an OG charging handle with BAD lever to lock back my bolt, but seems like there are a few companies offering upper receivers with left-hand charging bolts. For the ULSC/ICHD-flag manual of arms I can see how having a left hand charger would be a handy feature.

    Personally I would build one rather than buy a complete gun, but that’s just me.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ECK View Post
    I put mine together from parts in 2017 and competed with it for almost a year when the division was provisional bc I was PCC-curious. I still get it out now and then for a change of pace at local matches. PCC is a fun division, plus there is the option of shooting it in USPSA 2-Gun matches paired with a pistol.

    I know you said you didn’t want a kit gun. But there were a few things to consider when diving into PCC (either full gun or a parts gun).

    1. If going with an AR pattern PCC do you want Glock or Colt SMG style mags? Can’t say one is any better than the other, but back when I built mine if you wanted last-round-bolt-hold-open you pretty much had to go with Colt SMG mags. I think since then manufacturers have made lowers w/ Glock mags that offer LRBHO. Not that it makes much if any difference in PCC division as far as I can see unlike Limited or Open where people disable their followers to prevent slide lock. I will say that Colt mags have some hard and sharp corners…. Colt SMG mags seat more at a 90 deg angle than Glock mag AR-9s. But again, can’t see how this matters in a comp gun.

    2. 16” barrel or shorter? The reason I ask is ammo. Out of a 16.1” bbl my AR-9 chrono’d in the high 140PF using ammo that makes about 130PF out of my pistols. So for a while there I was loading 9mm specifically for my PCC that chrono’d 130-ish PF. It was kind of a PITA to maintain two loads of 9mm. Granted, if you want to, Eley offers a factory 9mm rnd that is supposed to be 130-ish PF out of a 16” PCC barrel under the USPSA certified match ammo program. The same Eley ammo is supposedly <125PF out of a 4-5” pistol.

    3. Some AR-9s are quiet, to the point where the RO has to be super close to pick up the last shot. Case in point, my AR-9 with the above 16” barrel and an A2 birdcage flash hider was sufficiently quiet that sometimes my PACT III shot timer, when clipped to my belt, didn’t pick up all the shots during practice and I could shoot it outdoors without hearing pro. I experienced numerous reshoots during matches when the shot timer didn’t pick up my last shot. I’ve since switched out barrels to a Taccom barrel that has a 5.5” barrel inside a 16.1” shroud, and have not had any issues with it being too quiet. Bonus was I could use my regular match pistol ammo. Plus I lost about 1/2 lb of weight out at the muzzle and the gun balances really nicely one-handed.

    4. AR-9’s are blowback, so there is some dot bounce during recoil. I have not shot the JP-5 or the CMMG delayed blow-back design ARs, but the recoil on the Sig PCC’s is noticeably different than AR-9’s. I know a lot of people say big-whoopie-sh!t it’s a 9mm, but when trying to go fast on a partial target at 15+ yds, it’d be nice if there wasn’t so much dot bounce from the blow-back recoil.

    5. I played around a bunch with different buffer springs and buffer weights back in 2017 when all the kids where experimenting with the best combo to reduce dot bounce. I finally landed on the JP bcg and JP silent captured spring kit, and spent the rest of my time tuning my load to be the lightest possible recoil. Plus not having the sproiiinnnng in the buffer tube from the buffer spring was nice.

    6. I went with an OG charging handle with BAD lever to lock back my bolt, but seems like there are a few companies offering upper receivers with left-hand charging bolts. For the ULSC/ICHD-flag manual of arms I can see how having a left hand charger would be a handy feature.

    Personally I would build one rather than buy a complete gun, but that’s just me.
    Thanks for taking the time with all this info.

    1. I’d much prefer a Glock mag gun, unless there was a benefit to using Colt mags. As stated, my open gun doesn’t lock back and it’s not an issue.

    2. 16” barrel. Don’t want the hassle of SBR, nor play the “brace” game. If need be, I’ll work up a carbine load.

    3. Yep, I’ve RO’d quite a few. If the RO is on his game, it shouldn’t be an issue, right? I mean, we run .22 rimfire carbines in steel challenge.

    4. Less recoil is better, regardless. Plus, if the delayed works well enough, perhaps a prod load at 140 wouldn’t be as big a deal?

  8. #8
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    I shoot pcc, nowhere near as often as I’d like. I’m not a “serious shooter” so take the following fwiw…

    I’m in the Colt mag game deep and hard, so that’s what my pcc takes. This is from owning an actual colt pcc first, at a time when Glock-mag-fed ARs weren’t much of a thing, if they were a thing at all. Other than pote totally having to buy new mags, I don’t think the mag type matters much. I just shot a match last weekend and never reloaded once. However, imo the Colt mag angle is preferable when reloads are required. That may simply be because it’s what I’m used to.

    Fwiw, my pcc does double duty. It sits in the safe with a can and a light/laser at 12 o’clock for pest control, and the can and laser come off for games. For me, as infrequently as I get to shoot matches, this is important. In fact, it’s pretty important for me for just about all my guns these days. They can’t be unitaskers. I do enjoy having the shorter barrel for barricades, weight, etc. but I don’t know that I’d go through the SBR trouble just for a game gun. Which reminds me…

    re: braced pistols, it’s my understanding that the pcc needs to be a “rifle”, SBR or otherwise, not a “pistol”. Of course, this only matters if you’re “serious”. Which remind me…

    A lot of the stuff about power factor, and braced pistols, and all that other stuff is go g to only matter if you’re “serious” or if your local club is “serious”.

    Which is also the only time I’d bother with fiddle-fart. IMO an off-the-shelf option is the way to go to start. Unless of course fiddle-fart is part of what you’re after (not that there’s anything wrong with that…). PCC changes the game a little here and there, and if I were you I’d want to try it out with as little expense as possible first, and then decide if I wanted to get “serious”. Also, the off the shelf gun would be easier to sell if you eventually want to upgrade or just don’t like it. And is less likely to be a unitasker.
    Does the above offend? If you have paid to be here, you can click here to put it in context.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    Thanks for taking the time with all this info.

    1. I’d much prefer a Glock mag gun, unless there was a benefit to using Colt mags. As stated, my open gun doesn’t lock back and it’s not an issue.

    2. 16” barrel. Don’t want the hassle of SBR, nor play the “brace” game. If need be, I’ll work up a carbine load.

    3. Yep, I’ve RO’d quite a few. If the RO is on his game, it shouldn’t be an issue, right? I mean, we run .22 rimfire carbines in steel challenge.

    4. Less recoil is better, regardless. Plus, if the delayed works well enough, perhaps a prod load at 140 wouldn’t be as big a deal?


    1. Seems like when the whole PCC game took off there ended up being quite a few more manufacturers offering Glock AR-9’s over ones that took Colt SMG mags. Advantage as well for the Glock mag AR is much more magazine support since everyone owns a Glock, right? All you really need is one 32 rnd mag w/ a +10 or bigger extension on it and you’re good to go. Then carry one or two 140mm G17 mag on the belt for the occasional stages that require a mandatory reload. In USPSA there isn’t a max magazine size, so most PCC’ers run 42 to 50-ish round mags and never need to reload unless the stage requires it.

    2. 16” barrel with a big comp on the end for noise would a winner, or 14.5 and pin/weld the comp. Seems like AR-9 barrels come in either of two thread patterns for the muzzle: 12x36 or the standard 12x28. The USPSA rulebook specifically disallows using a brace, but they allow SBRs. Personally I went 16.1” barrel because I periodically travel out of state for matches and don’t want to deal with the SBR paperwork to travel. I’ve yet to run into a stage that had such tight quarters where a SBR would have made it easier. What we do run into a bit is the hard leans around a barricade. That was the reason I added a second red dot on a 45 deg mount for the hard left leans (I’m right handed).

    3. I’ve RO’d quite a few PCC shooters as well and most PCCs you don’t have to get super close, but some you do. Problem is you never know when you’re going to get a quiet one until they start shooting. I like the AMG timer with a preset where the sound sensitivity is bumped up to 9. Run all the pistol shooters on the other preset set to 7. I’ve also RO’d at Steel Challenge matches with .22 rifles, but there’s so little movement in SC compared to USPSA other than that Outer Limits stage.

    4. Less dot bounce is better IMO, which can be a very wide combination of things. Like I said above, I chased that for a while and finally settled on JP BCG and SCS for my gun’s internals for reliability sake but was much better than a standard buffer spring and carbine buffer. This is something you may end up playing around with to ‘tune’ your gun and load to your liking. I will say the Sig MPX recoils much differently (softer) than AR-9s, which minimizes dot bounce, but the proprietary nature and availability of Sig parts (things like firing pins and extractors) made me shy away from the MPXs. Plus the handguard on the MPX was like holding onto the fat end of a baseball bat.

    This article is 2 years old, but may provide some good info on what’s popular among the USPSA crowd: https://www.ssusa.org/content/top-us...-guns-in-2020/

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    There's also a fair amount of love for the CZ Skorpion Evo III, especially in the aftermarket.

    True, it's a straight blowback gun, but it's not like the thing kicks as hard as a 5.56 rifle.
    The Scorpion is a popular plinker / brace pistol but the 16” version is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a “competitive PCC”

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