Mil/Agency Weapons

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I think a lot of the foreign weapon design choices, so far as the military, was to send money to allies. I don't think a lot of the small arms choices were truly based on "the best weapon" will win.




That is not germane to the conversation.

1. Cow - comment - doesn't moooove me.

2. General comment - germane - on why we adopt foreign ideas - the deep concept was that we go with the best product or process. That it is a digression from the serious nature of p-f or a comment on Clarence - I'm very sorry.

[the Schwartz]

The AR-15 is an American weapon, so that's one example.

It's disappointing that design goals of simplicity, modularity, robustness, and reliability have not been used in many other American guns. The S&W TDAs are a good counterexample of these principles in firearms design. That was an easy win for Glock.

It most certainly was. Reduced number of parts = reduced points of failure. Modularity and ease of mantenance are there but also a liability for those who substitute aftermarket parts of dubious quality or think that "more Dremel is good Dremel."

Some US manufacturers are doing this. Recently, I picked up a SCCY CPX2 in 9mm enticed by its very simple design. I was impressed by its quality as evidenced by the absence of interior and exterior machining marks, practically perfect finish, and its flawless performance at the range over the course of several hundred rounds, ~40% of which were JHPs.

Obviously, the SCCY CPX is not a LE or military service weapon, but the thinking is there.

[P30]

It's disappointing that design goals of simplicity, modularity, robustness, and reliability have not been used in many other American guns.

Achievement of these criteria in the current pistol models of several manufacturers:

      simplicity modularity robustness reliability
Glock     A          B          B           B
HK        C          C          A           A
SIG       B          A          B           C

Do you guys agree?

[the Schwartz]

Achievement of these criteria in the current pistol models of several manufacturers:

      simplicity modularity robustness reliability
Glock     A          B          B           B
HK        C          C          A           A
SIG       B          A          B           C

Do you guys agree?

In general, I agree with what you've offered with a minor difference in the area of platform modularity. In that specific case, I would give Glock an 'A' and SIG a 'B', but that is really nothing more than a minor picking of nits.

[Clusterfrack]

Depends on which Sig. The 320 striker and FCU assemblies are neither simple or robust. Tiny springs, too many parts, easy to damage beyond repair.

Edit: and all it takes is one problematic aspect of the design. The rest of the gun can be super modular, simple, etc. but if there's an Achilles heel...

Achievement of these criteria in the current pistol models of several manufacturers:

      simplicity modularity robustness reliability
Glock     A          B          B           B
HK        C          C          A           A
SIG       B          A          B           C

Do you guys agree?

[the Schwartz]

This--

Depends on which Sig. The 320 striker and FCU assemblies are neither simple or robust. Tiny springs, too many parts, easy to damage beyond repair.

--was exactly my thinking. After closely examining the SIG FCU for the first time, it looked more like a Rube Goldberg nightmare to me than anything else. Delicate springs left exposed, intricate little parts, none of which inspires confidence in its construction. That, along with an abhorrence that lingers from the Cohen era, has pretty much ruled out anything SIG for me for the foreseeable future. This is in stark contrast to the West German-made P226 in 9x19 that I carried early in my LE career. That thing was built like a brick shithouse, and, despite being a very well-used specimen when it was issued to me, shot like a frickin' laser.

[Default.mp3]

Why are most all of the mil/agency firearms foreign manufactures?

SIG, Glock, FN, Benelli, Beretta, HK, etc have US manufacturing plants and American engineers but...

Why are there so few actual American firearms brands represented within the mil and agency contracts?

I mean, I can think of quite a few. Colt, Barrett, Remington, LMT, and KAC all have military contracts, both here and abroad.

[Paul Blackburn]

I mean, I can think of quite a few. Colt, Barrett, Remington, LMT, and KAC all have military contracts, both here and abroad.

True, however the large scale small arms contracts seem to favor the foreign brands.

[Rex G]

I wouldn’t know; I was expected to buy my own firearms, when I was employed by one of the largest municipal PDs in the USA, Houston PD, in Texas. When the wide-open list of duty pistols was narrowed-down to three forties, in 1997, a Third-Generation S&W was one of them. This list changed, over time, and grew to a somewhat broader selection, with at least one S&W model always being among the several on the list. Then, when all new-hires were expected to use one duty pistol model, going forward, relatively recently, it was the SIG P320, and I considered SIG to be a US company, by then. (Then, the shoot-folks-when-dropped scandal brewed-up, and the G17 became the new one duty pistol.)

The list of approved shotguns varied, over time, but most of the models on the approved list, over time, have been US-made. The only pump gun model to remain approved, during my entire career, 1983 to 2018, was the Remington 870. The Benelli M1 Super 90 was the first auto-loader to be approved, and it remained on the approved list through the duration of my career, joined by the Benelli M2, when it was introduced.

The approved patrol rifles, starting in 2002, were the AR15 and Mini-14. An HK version of the AR15/M4 would, technically, probably be acceptable. I think most AR15/M4 weapons are US products. There were patrol rifles, on the streets of Houston, until 1983, but that was before my time, and I never saw a copy of the pre-1983 rifle policy. Anecdotally, the M1 Carbine was the usual patrol carbine, until 1983, but some officers carried the AR15.

I have framed this as “history,” rather than “discussing department policy.” Even though retired, I want the PD to keep issuing those annual “honorably retired” qual cards, to me, so, I have to behave myself.

Edited to add: Regarding that list of three approved duty pistols, in 1997, the SIG P229 was one of them, and even then, I believe that the slides were US-made, and that the pistols were assembled in the USA, so, even then, it was an “American” product, so, two of the three approved forties were US weapons. (The third was the Beretta 8040 Cougar, which was soon replaced, on that list, for a while, by the Beretta 96.)

[Le Français]

(Haven't kept up with current issue.)

Sig P320, Colt M4, Remington 870, Sig MPX. 9mm Glocks are in widespread use as POWs.