Frustrated by total lack of academic rigor: gel results particularly .22, .25

[DueSpada]

For one reason or another, for some people 22lr factory ammo is it. The Federal Punch 22lr may be the best of the pure penetrators. The gel penetration tests I've seen seem to show it does what Federal says it does. If you have to use a 22 check it out.

[spyderco monkey]

For those interested, these are the WW2 .22lr FMJ developed for the OSS.






"According to Dr. John Brunner in his book on OSS weapons, the pistols were initially issued with standard velocity Remington .22 long rifle commercial ammunition. In July, 1944, it was observed that the use of soft lead bullet ammunition would violate the Hague Accords so a request was made to develop full metal jacketed .22lr ammo. General Donovan directed that the use of these pistols be suspended until supplies of jacketed ammunition could be issued.

In spite of this, the guns continued to be issued and used with standard ammunition while FMJ ammunition was being developed by Remington. The new cartridge was designated T-42 and Brunner reports the first 20,000 rounds were made available to OSS by February 8, 1945. By the end of that month, nearly 1 1/2 million rounds of T-42 had been produced by Remington with nearly 2 million more produced by the end of May.

The T-42 was adopted as the M24 in May, 1945 with some minor changes to the bullet length and weight. Remington produced them through lots RA 5007 produced after 1946. According to Woodin Volume III, lots RA 5008 and 5009, consisting of 4 million additional cartridges, were made in 1967. I think the M24 is still standard and the approved cartridge for .22lr used in combat conditions."

[willie]

I always told folks asking my advice that .22's and .25's could kill but seldom stop an attackler and added that the person shot would likely die in a hospital. My opinion is that .32's and 380's are in this category. I've owned a basket full of these calibers but bought them because of the nifty, neat, and keen handguns in which they were chambered. I include the .22 Magnum in this unreliable category. It seems that more mouse caliber advocates are showing up on forums like ours. I say like ours because we have fewer dilettantes than most other forums. The last statement sounds as if I'm putting all mouse gun advocates in the dilettante group. Not so. Sometime we deny where we fit. I'm an advanced plinker with Fudd tendencies. We have folks here who are in more serious categories. They train, attend classes, and study. Stephanie is an example.

[Jim Watson]

Personally I think a modern 7mm version of the 25 Stevens Long Rimfire based on the .27 cal Winchester nail gun round would make a better snubby round than any of the 22 LR or Mag loads we have now.

Trivia: Remington worked on a .267 Rimfire that is usually described as an upgrade of the .25 but could not get it to work well in their regular .22 rifle actions; high pressure, poor accuracy. I once saw a picture of a revolver modified for it but that one really dropped out of sight fast.

[WDR]

. Since there are few options for casting bullets and loading them into .22 rimfire ammunition, the best commercial option that I can think of is the CCI .22LR 40-grain SGB.

FWIW... this load does work pretty well on small game. As did the 42gr Winchester Super Silhouette truncated cone bullet (that I wish they would bring back). I always attributed their effectiveness to the flat noses. Much more like hollow point bullets, than regular round nose lead, in their effects on animals I've used them on.

Unfortunately, CCI hasn't made much of the SGB as of late... maybe not at all in the last couple years. They do still list it on their website. https://www.cci-ammunition.com/rimfi...llet/6-58.html

[Corse]

I don't expect .25 to do jack shit, especially on a bone strike. It is not even a reliable suicide gun. I have seen untold people flop for an uncomfortably long period of time after temple shooting themselves. A guy who shot himself under the chin had the round stick in his hard palate, like a little metallic tonsil hanging down. I've seen them fail to penetrate skulls, ribs, bounce off teeth, etc. While perhaps not the academic rigor you were looking for, I would never consider a .25 for carry. Other than the .22 Short, I can't think of a shittier round to defend yourself with.

I also don't get the fascination with .22 in handguns or revolvers unless you are so arthritis challenged your hands won't allow you to deal with a more suitable cartridge for self defense. If you are, then you've already accepted penetration and ability to deal with bone is lacking but you run what you can run.

This is probably the only reason I need not to carry one for anything beyond varmint elimination. If you are a super secret assassin or even just a secret assassin, disregard this.

[spyderco monkey]

In terms of ".22lr Penetrator" options, Cutting Edge has release custom copper solid .22lr projectiles and reloading dies.

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/shop/...e-bullets/22lr

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2021/...-reloading-kit

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...lets-22lr-kit/

While these are intended for long range .22lr rifle competition, the solid lathe turned copper construction and wide meplat would likely also make them great candidates for a 22lr SD loads. Or as an offensive OSS type load for suppressed .22lr pistols...

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

In terms of ".22lr Penetrator" options, Cutting Edge has release custom copper solid .22lr projectiles and reloading dies.

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/shop/...e-bullets/22lr

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2021/...-reloading-kit

While these are intended for long range .22lr rifle competition, the solid lathe turned copper construction and wide meplat would likely also make them great candidates for a 22lr SD loads. Or as an offensive OSS type load for suppressed .22lr pistols...

These would be the only option I'd consider for serious use or something along those lines, which should yield the deepest penetration assuming it doesn't tumble (which is shouldn't do easily given a wide meplat). Still not confidence inspiring though...

[spyderco monkey]

These would be the only option I'd consider for serious use or something along those lines, which should yield the deepest penetration assuming it doesn't tumble (which is shouldn't do easily given a wide meplat). Still not confidence inspiring though...

It's all relative. I certainly dont keep .22s for defense, and if I had recoil averse family I'd give them one of my 5.7s, which is really the goldilocks zone in terms of low recoil / good penetration / high capacity / high reliability.

But for tens of thousands of Americans probably spanning a century, .22lr has been their SD choice, and so its actually pretty shocking to me that only recently has a dedicated SD load been developed for it.

Since I have a bunch of .22's, I would also like to have a SD load available to keep on hand so they could serve as a 3rd line defensive item / 'handout guns.' Likewise having some proper .22 SD ammo available for friends and family.

When Covid first happened, the initial 2 weeks to stop the spread time period was pretty spooky in my area. Business boarded up, grocery stores running out of food with shoppers looking covetously at others shopping carts, extremely minimal police patrols. Lines out the door at every gun shop, with not a round to be found.

I ended up talking with my immediate neighbors in my cul de sac about their security plans. Next door neighbor had unfortunately sold their .38 a month prior, leaving him with only his .22 Buckmark, while the woman across the street had their fathers old .22 bolt action in the closet. My buddies Dad only had a .22 Woodsman. I'm sure our neighborhood was not unusual in this ratio of .22s to 'real guns.'

It would have been nice to have had a stash of "CCI Hardcast" type SD ammo to hand out in that scenario. (They'd have to be pretty good neighbors indeed for me to hand out any of those solid copper handloads though )

[revolvergeek]

Trivia: Remington worked on a .267 Rimfire that is usually described as an upgrade of the .25 but could not get it to work well in their regular .22 rifle actions; high pressure, poor accuracy. I once saw a picture of a revolver modified for it but that one really dropped out of sight fast.

Very interesting! I will have to dig into that a little.