Frustrated by total lack of academic rigor: gel results particularly .22, .25

[Polecat]

Yeah don’t laugh right. Just DB, Wayne, Claude got me to thinking then that led to searching, which led to much frustration. One guy unpacked his gel, no comment as to temp, calibration etc. Then another used clear gel, etc. You get the idea. I guess I am just venting as the results are all over the map.

I gues what I need is from all you wise sages not “wise asses”🙂, what is realistic accurate penetration numbers you trust from say .22 and .25? Researching the .25, most comes in about 750fps, crazies have uploaded to >1000fps. I think there is room for development say a tru cated solid like the “.22 Viper” at even 875 or so?

Appreciate your mindful scientific thought with the spirit of DB, Wayne and Claude, recognizing you might carry one of these.

Thanks Guys,

Dave

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't expect .25 to do jack shit, especially on a bone strike. It is not even a reliable suicide gun. I have seen untold people flop for an uncomfortably long period of time after temple shooting themselves. A guy who shot himself under the chin had the round stick in his hard palate, like a little metallic tonsil hanging down. I've seen them fail to penetrate skulls, ribs, bounce off teeth, etc. While perhaps not the academic rigor you were looking for, I would never consider a .25 for carry. Other than the .22 Short, I can't think of a shittier round to defend yourself with.

I also don't get the fascination with .22 in handguns or revolvers unless you are so arthritis challenged your hands won't allow you to deal with a more suitable cartridge for self defense. If you are, then you've already accepted penetration and ability to deal with bone is lacking but you run what you can run.

[the Schwartz]

Yeah don’t laugh right. Just DB, Wayne, Claude got me to thinking then that led to searching, which led to much frustration. One guy unpacked his gel, no comment as to temp, calibration etc. Then another used clear gel, etc. You get the idea. I guess I am just venting as the results are all over the map.

I gues what I need is from all you wise sages not “wise asses”🙂, what is realistic accurate penetration numbers you trust from say .22 and .25? Researching the .25, most comes in about 750fps, crazies have uploaded to >1000fps. I think there is room for development say a tru cated solid like the “.22 Viper” at even 875 or so?

Appreciate your mindful scientific thought with the spirit of DB, Wayne and Claude, recognizing you might carry one of these.

Thanks Guys,

Dave

Academic rigor? On the internet? Surely, you can't be serious. And, no, I'm not calling you Shirley.

OK, I'll stop picking on you now.

Unfortunately, the very nature of the internet—it's a great big virtual electronic wall begging for graffiti—is the biggest contributor to the problem. So, no academic rigor. Plenty of opinions though.

As to your search for .22LR and .25ACP penetration data obtained from testing in 10% ordnance gelatin— John Ervin, Mech. Eng. (Brassfetcher.com), who worked at the US ARMY BRL in munitions development, has produced some gelatin test data that can be found here—

.22LR:
https://www.brassfetcher.com/Handgun...allistics.html

.25ACP:
https://www.brassfetcher.com/Handgun...Selection.html

If you want to see (some) images of the gelatin blocks they can be found in the archived sources here—

.22LR:
http://web.archive.org/web/200703160....com/22LR.html

.25ACP:
http://web.archive.org/web/200712011.../var25acp.html

In general, at realistic ''mouse gun'' velocities for a .22LR 40-grain LRN (@865 fps) and a .25ACP 50-grain FMJRN (@720 fps), if—and that's a big 'if'—the bullets do not deform and remain nose-forward throughout the entire penetration event, you can expect 19 - 22 inches and 16½ - 18½ inches of penetration in 10% gelatin, respectively. How that translates in the human body is anyone's guess since varying tissue properties and structures (bone, cartilage, muscle, organs, etc.) will definitely reduce penetration depth and alter the path of the bullet. Expect very little in the way of damage along the wound channel from such round, smooth profiles. Embolism of soft tissues along the wound channel will also mitigate fluid loss in many cases.



As for the validity of the Clear Ballistics Gel crap, don't get me started. It won't be pretty.

[Polecat]

Thanks guys, had not seen that brass fetcher stuff!

That is helpful!

[spyderco monkey]

Researching the .25, most comes in about 750fps, crazies have uploaded to >1000fps. I think there is room for development say a tru cated solid like the “.22 Viper” at even 875 or so?

My buddy is a mechanical engineer and prolific reloader, does everything from 5.7 to .454.

At some point he snagged a pair of .25 ACP Berretta Jetfires, and started working on a +P+ .25 load for them.

He was getting 50gr @ 1000-1100fps, and 35gr @ 1250-1300fps from the Jetfire. Pressure was high, but the overall powder charge was so tiny (below 2gr) that neither the brass or the gun showed any adverse effects in 1000+ rounds fired. The only limit was that he was unable to physically fit any more powder into the case.

Needless to say, this will never become a commercial load.

But it does make me think that a '.251 Super' has potential. Rimless .25 ACP diameter case, with COL of a 9x19, with a similar 50kpsi max to the .30 Super. Goal of a 50gr gold dot @ ~1100 from a LCP.

Could create a super high capacity doublestack pocket pistol (15+) with tolerable recoil ~ 0.35"x12"+ penetration, with the reliability of a centerfire cartridge.

[spyderco monkey]

In general, at realistic ''mouse gun'' velocities for a .22LR 40-grain LRN (@865 fps) and a .25ACP 50-grain FMJRN (@720 fps), if—and that's a big 'if'—the bullets do not deform and remain nose-forward throughout the entire penetration event,

I'm actually surprised we haven't seen a .22lr Hardcast load developed for self defense.

CCI already makes polymer coated lead .22's; a polymer coated hardcast version of the Velocitor would have solid penetration (at least for a .22).

[Polecat]

Now that is thinkin oitside the box! Ya know if they have the balls to come out with a .30 Super Carry! Like what was Hornady thinking with a .25 FTX and .35 Gr XTP HP! Oh I forgot federal Good Dot. Now those seem a waste, give me a trumcated FMJ at a true 900 or 1000, don’t get me wrong, just tryin for better. I like the .251 idea.

[Ed L]

I also don't get the fascination with .22 in handguns or revolvers unless you are so arthritis challenged your hands won't allow you to deal with a more suitable cartridge for self defense. If you are, then you've already accepted penetration and ability to deal with bone is lacking but you run what you can run.

Exactly this.

Here is a comparison photo of a .38 wadcutter next to a .22. The .38 wadcutter has 3.5-5 times the weight of a .22 round--depending on the particular .22 round. The .38 wadcutter has several times the surface area as the .22 round. The .38 wadcutter will penetrate better and more reliably that a .22 round in the body of an actual human attacker --especially through bones and other obstructions. The .38 will make a larger permanent cavity while doing so. This is especially the case with a .38 wadcutter.

[Hambo]

I don't expect .25 to do jack shit, especially on a bone strike. It is not even a reliable suicide gun. I have seen untold people flop for an uncomfortably long period of time after temple shooting themselves. A guy who shot himself under the chin had the round stick in his hard palate, like a little metallic tonsil hanging down. I've seen them fail to penetrate skulls, ribs, bounce off teeth, etc. While perhaps not the academic rigor you were looking for, I would never consider a .25 for carry. Other than the .22 Short, I can't think of a shittier round to defend yourself with.

I also don't get the fascination with .22 in handguns or revolvers unless you are so arthritis challenged your hands won't allow you to deal with a more suitable cartridge for self defense. If you are, then you've already accepted penetration and ability to deal with bone is lacking but you run what you can run.

I have the same anecdotal experiences, and they're enough reason for me to not use them.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Yeah don’t laugh right. Just DB, Wayne, Claude got me to thinking then that led to searching, which led to much frustration. One guy unpacked his gel, no comment as to temp, calibration etc. Then another used clear gel, etc. You get the idea. I guess I am just venting as the results are all over the map.

I gues what I need is from all you wise sages not “wise asses”🙂, what is realistic accurate penetration numbers you trust from say .22 and .25? Researching the .25, most comes in about 750fps, crazies have uploaded to >1000fps. I think there is room for development say a tru cated solid like the “.22 Viper” at even 875 or so?

Appreciate your mindful scientific thought with the spirit of DB, Wayne and Claude, recognizing you might carry one of these.

Thanks Guys,

Dave

I have not and would not carry either for defense purposes against anything larger than a bunny. Like BBI, I've seen shockingly unsuccessful uses of .25 Auto and .22 RF on humans.