The “I need a .45 but do I need a 1911?” thread

[fatdog]

Went looking and turns out Kramer will make his IWB #3 and his other models for the Expert. That would check the quality holster option box for me. And Blade-tech, while not in JMCK's league, is not the worst stuff out there.

I love my USP45, but even with the JMCK IWB #3 it feels like trying to conceal a whole box of Wheaties sometimes. Some solutions won't work for me because I never OC, not even in the woods.

There must have been a batch of these Experts come in this year as I am seeing NIB versions for sale and some even at rational (for HK) prices. I am tempted because I already have a large stock of magazines, I am drowning in .45ACP reloads, and I just sold a bunch of long guns that substantially replenished the gun money fund.

>>>Now waiting from the reliable enablers to tell me what a great decision that would be and how they hold their value even if I don't love it<<<

[farscott]

Brand question:

A Gunbroker search yesterday for 1911, pistol, .45ACP, 5" barrel, new or used, between $800 and $1200 surfaced 279 listings.

The top five listings by percentage were:

Kimber - 20%
Auto Ordnance - 15%
Springfield Armory - 14%
Colt - 14%
Sig Sauer - 8%

I was curious so I looked at Auto Ordnance. These seem to mostly be GI guns, or Series 80s, which I'm not interested in.

But what is the deal with Kimber?

Opinions seem to be all over the map, ranging from "this gun is trash" to "I been sHoOTIn' mINe fOr yEaRs, 200 tROuble fREe ROUnds" kind of thing. I was surprised how many Kimber listings (there were 56 Kimbers for sale out of 279 listings) there were on GB (or maybe that means something in and of itself).

Is Kimber worth looking at for first time 1911, or is is a "run away, fast" situation?

Kimber has made and continues to make many, many 1911-pattern pistols. Kimber started the concept of a 1911 ready to go out of the box with the modern features that many shooters had performed on new pistols, often before even firing them. Before Kimber, most people bought a Colt or SA and then took it to a smith who did everything from action jobs to new barrel bushings to new sights to checkering to dehorns to beavertail grip safeties. Kimber marketed a gun (the original Custom) that needed none of that, and the original guns had a reputation for being very good values with decent quality.

Success has a way of breeding contempt, and Kimber was a victim of their own success. Between lapses in quality control caused by an apparent desire to lower costs and variants that were more aesthetics than functional, Kimber lost a lot of the reputation than made the brand. There was a debacle with an external extractor, issues with rusting barrels, issues with the timing of the "II" firing pin safety, poor service, etc.

In my personal experience, the best Kimber value was the base five-inch Custom (not Custom II). Most other Kimber models just changed materials or aesthetics and cost a lot more. Like Colt, each Kimber needs to be evaluated in a vacuum. Some are good while the next one is a steaming pile of garbage. Much like Colt and SA, but without the brand cachet of the former and the customer service of the latter. Kimber slides, frames, and barrels are good; the small parts are the issue and vary too much. I would not hesitate to purchase a true custom that used a Kimber frame, slide (both without the Kimber firing pin design), and barrel (the ones that rusted were rusted when new) as long as the smith is competent and the rest of the Kimber parts, minus the grips, are scrapped.

My opinion is choosing a Kimber is not something for the novice 1911 buyer due to the number of possible issues and the proven lack of Kimber customer service. One is better to choose SA. Both may have issues, but SA will quickly address the issues at their cost.

[fatdog]

But what is the deal with Kimber?

One man's opinion, mid '90's I purchased two of theirs, both of which ran great out of the box and put in years and thousands of rounds of reliable service. I started shooting USPSA (limited 10) with one of them. The alloy commander version became my service size CCW for a couple of years. Both are now owned by close friends and still chugging along.

But, I know personally of dozens of horror stories for spotty quality guns that nobody could seem to fix. They had some awful designs like their external extractor guns that were never satisfactory. Their quality has been pure hit and miss the last 15 years. Sorta like the old saying if you got one made on Monday or Friday when the work force was coming in hung over or mailing it in because their weekend had mentally started, you were probably screwed but the ones made Tuesday through Thursday might be ok.

Their manufacturing operations have never been a paragon of quality and consistency, but their marketing has been great. They are overly poplular with the less skilled folks who only shoot a hundred rounds a year and their 1911 is a talisman. There are no doubt some out there that are just fine like mine were, there are tens of thousands of duds, including many who's owners don't even understand they have a POS because they are not real shooters themselves.

[BobM]

I have a Kimber Desert Warrior from 2005 that’s been fine but I’ve heard enough negative stories to be careful about getting another

[Elwin]

Brand question:

A Gunbroker search yesterday for "1911", in the pistol category, .45 ACP, 5" barrel, new or used, between $800 and $1200 surfaced 279 listings.

The top five listings by percentage were:

Kimber - 20%
Auto Ordnance - 15%
Springfield Armory - 14%
Colt - 14%
Sig Sauer - 8%

I was curious so I looked at Auto Ordnance. These seem to mostly be GI guns, or Series 80s, which I'm not interested in.

But what is the deal with Kimber?

Opinions seem to be all over the map, ranging from "this gun is trash" to "I been sHoOTIn' mINe fOr yEaRs, 200 tROuble fREe ROUnds" kind of thing. I was surprised how many Kimber listings (there were 56 Kimbers for sale out of 279 listings) there were on GB (or maybe that means something in and of itself?).

Is Kimber worth looking at for first time 1911, or is is a "run away, fast" situation?

My two government 45s are Kimbers. Mine work, and they have… well, a lot more than 200 rounds through them.

But I attribute them working to a combination of luck in getting guns with basic specs that are correct and then me putting in more work to fix some things that weren’t right. Especially vexing, needing to tune the Swartz drop safety on one and the grip safety on the other - since the Swartz is activated by the grip safety, that latter gun then needed its own drop safety work to match the newly tuned grip safety. You could get any 1911 that needs grip safety tuning but the Swartz safety in Series II Kimbers makes it a ******* nightmare.

I wouldn’t get one for my first 1911 unless I knew from the start I was into the tinkering part of 1911 ownership. It may be fine, it may need minor fixing, it may need gunsmith level fixing. Roll of the dice.

[mmc45414]

But what is the deal with Kimber?

Like others have well stated, there are many of them that are great, but they set themselves up to trip over their own air hose with a few things that they probably didn't do a good job of resolving. The one I had was an early custom shop gun and I didn't shoot it a bunch but it worked fine.

But we probably also do not hear so much about the ones that work, nobody posts on the www when their pistol works (or their meal was good, or their car started and ran...). I have a close friend that I have been shooting with frequently since about 1975. He shoots 1911s (in 45ACP) almost exclusively, he has several Kimbers, and to the best of my knowledge they all have just worked. He is an experienced and meticulous reloader, and his guns just run.

Kimber slides, frames, and barrels are good; the small parts are the issue and vary too much.

OTOH I have a different friend that had one, that was supposed to be a custom shop gun, that started following to half cock. I checked it out for him and when I say the sear looked like shit, I mean it looked like excrement. The internal parts were MIM, properly executed Metal Injection Molding is a viable manufacturing method, but how an incompletely molded piece could make it into a custom shop gun is why they have the reputation they do.

You could get any 1911 that needs grip safety tuning but the Swartz safety in Series II Kimbers makes it a ******* nightmare. dice.

I would probably avoid anything with any of the extra firing pin blocking mechanisms. The lightweight 9mm firing pins with heavy springs seem to have resolved the drop safe issue without adding any complexity to the trigger stroke. And you would be buying it as a bit of a target orientated gun anyway.

I wouldn’t get one for my first 1911 unless I knew from the start I was into the tinkering part of 1911 ownership. It may be fine, it may need minor fixing, it may need gunsmith level fixing. Roll of the dice.

IMO the good news is that many of the fixes have COTS upgrade remedies available, and the 1911 seems like voodoo, but it is rather remarkable in how straight forward it is. We all expect thing to work out of the box, but if something is crappy from the factory sending it back to that factory gets you another batch of the crappy parts. In the case of my friend's MIM sear I swapped in a wire EDM cut fire control group (I think from Harrison) and it was a nice improvement and an easy drop in installation. Sure, we spent money to fix a factory flaw, but implemented a nice upgrade in the process, rather just send it back for a little better MIM part that got completely molded.

[Elwin]

I would probably avoid anything with any of the extra firing pin blocking mechanisms. The lightweight 9mm firing pins with heavy springs seem to have resolved the drop safe issue without adding any complexity to the trigger stroke. And you would be buying it as a bit of a target orientated gun anyway.


IMO the good news is that many of the fixes have COTS upgrade remedies available, and the 1911 seems like voodoo, but it is rather remarkable in how straight forward it is. We all expect thing to work out of the box, but if something is crappy from the factory sending it back to that factory gets you another batch of the crappy parts. In the case of my friend's MIM sear I swapped in a wire EDM cut fire control group (I think from Harrison) and it was a nice improvement and an easy drop in installation. Sure, we spent money to fix a factory flaw, but implemented a nice upgrade in the process, rather just send it back for a little better MIM part that got completely molded.

Good point on drop safeties. I'd agree that for RJ's purposes, he should likely just cross Kimber Series II guns off the list like he already has with Series 80.

And agreed on the fixes/upgrades. I like futzing with 1911s, and I'm perfectly happy to have two reliable and accurate Kimbers that happen to be total mix of original parts and Wilson, 10-8, and Ed Brown replacement parts (with more of the latter to come - the primary Kimber is getting high enough on round count I'm thinking I'll just proactively replace all the ignition parts at some point...). It just took some money and bench work to get there, which other people may not enjoy as much as I did.

Also, I know the Kimber external extractors have a well-deserved reputation, but I really like mine. The gun is a Team Match II with the final generation extractor that was made of sufficiently hard steel, and with an extra power extractor spring from Wolff it has some truly impressive consistent ejection with HSTs. Being what it is, it should be basically good to go indefinitely now that it works as it should, which is one less thing for me to worry about.

Would I buy another one? No.

[mmc45414]

And agreed on the fixes/upgrades. I like futzing with 1911s, and I'm perfectly happy to have two reliable and accurate Kimbers that happen to be total mix of original parts and Wilson, 10-8, and Ed Brown replacement parts (with more of the latter to come - the primary Kimber is getting high enough on round count I'm thinking I'll just proactively replace all the ignition parts at some point...). It just took some money and bench work to get there, which other people may not enjoy as much as I did.

Yeah, I like futzing with stuff to make it more special. I suppose some people would think they are getting screwed if they put $100 worth of parts into a new gun, IMO I am just making it cooler...

Also, I know the Kimber external extractors have a well-deserved reputation, but I really like mine.

I think that is a good example of how Kimber became Kimber. An external extractor (IMO) makes absolute sense on a 1911, but since Kimber did a poor implementation and reverted it is perceived to be a flawed concept. How it works on every other pistol, including S&W 1911s, and didn't work for Kimber is a Kimber thing.

Would I buy another one? No.

I would buy one if it was a nice deal, but wouldn't walk into a well-stocked store with other choices and say "I choose this one"...

[OlongJohnson]

There must have been a batch of these Experts come in this year as I am seeing NIB versions for sale and some even at rational (for HK) prices. I am tempted because I already have a large stock of magazines, I am drowning in .45ACP reloads, and I just sold a bunch of long guns that substantially replenished the gun money fund.

>>>Now waiting from the reliable enablers to tell me what a great decision that would be and how they hold their value even if I don't love it<<<

The Expert and Elite are still on the CA "roster," so HK does a run every few years just so they can sell stuff there.

I picked up an Elite when a batch came in cheap and decided I didn't love it forever when the price was much, much higher during the dampanic. So you probably won't lose too big if you get an Expert.

[Robinson]

But what is the deal with Kimber?

Opinions seem to be all over the map, ranging from "this gun is trash" to "I been sHoOTIn' mINe fOr yEaRs, 200 tROuble fREe ROUnds" kind of thing. I was surprised how many Kimber listings (there were 56 Kimbers for sale out of 279 listings) there were on GB (or maybe that means something in and of itself?).

Is Kimber worth looking at for first time 1911, or is is a "run away, fast" situation?

I've got a couple Kimber LW Government 45s and I have actually been a bit impressed with them. It seems Kimber decided to release a bunch of LW (lightweight) guns in both 45ACP and 9mm without firing pin safeties at really good prices recently so I picked up a pair of the 45s. My examples run just fine, no malfunctions, and are pretty nicely made. I actually have no complaints at this time.