Second Shot Low DA/SA

[HammerStriker]

Anyone else have this problem with DA/SA pistols? The fist (DA) pull is usually on target for me. When I speed up and and am less focused on grip and trigger control the second/SA pull tends to hit low. Does this get better with practice for most? What's your experience?

[Suvorov]

Most likely anticipation of the 2nd (SA) shot. My experience is that it is hard to anticipate the “rolling” DA hammer release and thus the 1st DA shot is usually on target (apologies to Cooper here) but the SA shot and the desire to jerk through the “wall” of the trigger sear will often result in anticipation and a low hit. This is intensified when trying to shoot fast.

My advice would be to do some slow SA fire to verify that the sight are on and then practice the SA pull until you are comfortable with it. Then start practicing 2 shot DA/SA transitions slowly concentrating on preforming the SA pull smoothly. During this incorporate some “ball and dummy drills” to check for flinch/anticipation. Speed it up as you go but slow back down when you begin to shoot low. You will begin to master this with time. Sadly the DA/SA transition is difficult to practice with dry fire. I spend about 1/5 of my shooting working on this transition to this day.

It’s possible something else is going on but this is my first guess.

[TheNewbie]

Most likely anticipation of the 2nd (SA) shot. My experience is that it is hard to anticipate the “rolling” DA hammer release and thus the 1st DA shot is usually on target (apologies to Cooper here) but the SA shot and the desire to jerk through the “wall” of the trigger sear will often result in anticipation and a low hit. This is intensified when trying to shoot fast.

My advice would be to do some slow SA fire to verify that the sight are on and then practice the SA pull until you are comfortable with it. Then start practicing 2 shot DA/SA transitions slowly concentrating on preforming the SA pull smoothly. During this incorporate some “ball and dummy drills” to check for flinch/anticipation.

It’s possible something else is going on but this is my first guess.

This.

My biggest issue with DA/SA is the first SA shot. Not a horrible issue, but for me it’s a bigger issue than the DA pull, decocking, etc. In a perfect world I prefer DA/SA to any other trigger type I’ve shot, but the first SA pull is an issue I have to work through.

[Suvorov]

You may have seen these videos already but they are worth their weight in binary gold:

Langdon (3 part) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsoX26OhDCY

Vickers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivs-URdfWu4

[Guerrero]

I have a similar problem.

@TCinVA maybe you could give @HammerStriker the same advice you gave me a couple weeks ago?

Or, with your permission, I could repost the advice.

[TCinVA]

If you relax your grip pressure after the DA shot...which lots of people do...and you then exercise command detonation on the trigger, you'll drive the gun low.

Two ways you can fix this:

1. Grip the gun hard. I don't mean grip it firmly. I mean grip it harder. Harder than that. As hard as you possibly can. That will prevent you from tightening up your grip AS you press the trigger, which accounts for probably 85% of people's missed shots. Leaving slack in your grip works as well as leaving slack in a tow strap when you are trying to move something.

2. Exercise better trigger control. People often struggle with the DA or SA shot on the DA/SA pistol because of how they go at the trigger. Those that struggle with the DA trigger usually struggle with it because they try to run the whole trigger press as one violent motion...and usually with the aforementioned loose grip. They hammer the trigger and tighten their grip all at once and the gun porpoises low and to the opposite side of their dominant hand. Or they roll through the DA trigger like they're supposed to, but the second shot they ignore trigger control altogether and smash through the trigger press as one violent motion...while tightening their grip at the same time. This tends to drag the gun low, but not as far off center since it's usually not as forceful as the mistake with the DA trigger.

Contributing to this is how they reset the trigger, often losing contact with the trigger altogether during reset when trying to "go fast".

So set your grip, keep it, maintain contact with the trigger at all times and roll through the trigger regardless of the position of the hammer.

"Rolling" means maintaining a consistent trigger speed throughout the pull. It is when you accelerate through the trigger press or try to get it done NOW that you run into problems.

[OlongJohnson]

I found it helpful to spend a few weeks worth of range sessions doing basically just controlled pairs from a low ready: DA-SA-decock. Over and over and over. Little else. Sooner or later, you'll decide you've gotten far enough with this issue and move on to other stuff.

There are shooters here much more experienced and skilled than me who say they are more accurate with DA pistols than with SA pistols, even DAO vs SAO.

[medmo]

All replies so far are super excellent info. Nice. I can only add emphasis on already posted info. Train shooting pairs. DA, SA, decock and repeat. Speed it up after you get consistent and challenge yourself to get faster. You might suck a bit once you first start pushing speed. That’s ok, have to get out of comfort zone to start training speed to get proficiently faster. Also emphasis “rolling” through the SA similar to DA. This will help avoid the Ernest Langdon described “Now!” syndrome. Brain sees clear picture/alignment and sends a “Now!” message to trigger finger which smashes the trigger. Grip hard with shooting hand, grip harder with your support hand.

[Evil_Ed]

@Clusterfrack has a great bit in his sig line:

"You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018


This is very true, at least for me, especially when it comes to DA/SA...you can practice it until you get it down pat, and it'll get "easier", but if you don't blow the dust off every now and again...it'll be an uphill climb back to proficiency if you don't keep on top of it.

FWIW I have this issue especially on classic P-series Sigs - as near as I can tell, it's the near vertical grip angle that makes them a little more difficult for me to consistently master...DA/SA on my HK P30 with large panels all around, or a Beretta 92 variant (not Vertec), or a CZ P07 with a large backstrap on it..not so much of a problem. Maybe it's just a "me" thing; maybe it's all psychosomatic and it's something else, but for whatever reason - it's not something I notice happening on any of the other DA/SA guns I shoot, except for Sigs.

[TCinVA]

Grip hard with shooting hand, grip harder with your support hand.

If someone has been behind a gun a long time, they can do that.

I find most people cannot. If they do not grip as hard as they can with their shooting hand, it's that hand that rips at the gun as they're pressing the trigger. Changing your grip as you press the trigger (with either hand) is going to steer the gun off target. So understanding that the experience of recoil makes people grab the gun harder, let's just grab the gun harder before we press the trigger and maintain that pressure until we're done shooting.

This is especially important in defensive pistol work.

Grip the gun as hard as you can and get it up in front of your eyes as soon as you can. If someone can actually habituate gripping the gun as hard as they can and getting it up in front of their eyes on the draw instead of their belly or their chest, they'll be able to make anatomically useful hits very quickly at typical gunfight distances even with absolutely shit trigger control. Because if you're gripping the gun as hard as you can, your ability to steer the thing with the trigger is reduced to irrelevance up to about 10 yards.

A good grip and good trigger control is ideal...but that's not what people produce under stress. Certainly not with the levels of training they're being handed in typical police and sadly private sector training.

What we can get people to do in short order, however, is grip the living shit out of the gun and that alone will give them the ability to stop most threats. And it wont hurt when it comes time to shoot at longer ranges either...because we still need grip on the gun.

Grip is the foundation of running a handgun. You can't shoot a pistol the way we use pistols with a bad grip. If we can just get people to grip the bloody thing their accuracy will improve immensely.