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Thread: Massad Ayoob: Three reasons why you need to carry extra ammo and magazines

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    @Totem Polar, @Cdub_NW, and I were at @SouthNarc's ECQC last weekend. During evolutions (pressure testing scenarios) of gun grappling with Glock 17T (UTM paint marking trainers), I observed mags falling out of the gun 3 times just as a consequence of handfighting for control. In each case, the person didn't realize the gun had no mag, and repeatedly tried remediation that failed. While accessing a spare mag while entangled seems unlikely, this does underscore the usefulness of carrying a spare.
    Agree! When fighting over a pistol, we saw mags fall out repeatedly. I echo the statement of it being difficult while entangled or grappling BUT having a spare if an opportunity to break contact arises could be life saving.

    Also equally important. Pistol rounds are obviously not always lethal and OR more than 1 attacker, you could very likely need more than a few rounds per attacker to alter behavior adequately...

  2. #62
    Interestingly, a well known reviewer of UOF videos posted a statement “debunking” the need for spare magazines for civilian carry on Facebook this morning.

    My personal experience, however, is that very nearly 100% of any non-deliberately induced (training) malfunctions I have encountered in the past 30 years were magazine related- including the very first feed hiccup in ~12,000 rounds with a particular pistol I use in USPSA competition, just yesterday. The offending mag had done a couple dirt-swims in two previous stages. I cleared the double feed so quickly, no one really noticed.

    I always carry at least one spare mag, for reasons well covered in this thread.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    @Totem Polar, @Cdub_NW, and I were at @SouthNarc's ECQC last weekend. During evolutions (pressure testing scenarios) of gun grappling with Glock 17T (UTM paint marking trainers), I observed mags falling out of the gun 3 times just as a consequence of handfighting for control. In each case, the person didn't realize the gun had no mag, and repeatedly tried remediation that failed. While accessing a spare mag while entangled seems unlikely, this does underscore the usefulness of carrying a spare.

    Actually, I would argue that this result does not support carrying a spare mag.

    If someone cannot control the gun and the mag release is hit, then the chances that they will then be able to have enough control to put in a fresh mag is nil. What this result supports is the concept that a physical skillset trumps spare mags or even malfunction clearing. In all the times I have personally worked IFWA, I have never once had another person be able to hit the mag release on my gun. Because I did not give them the chance to do so.

    I am agnostic on someone carrying a spare mag. I think there are valid reasons not to, and I think there are equally vaild reasons to carry one, but being able to keep your pistol going in an entanglement is not one. If we want to argue gear solutions to that problem, then carrying a revolver is much more viable and justified.
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    @Totem Polar, @Cdub_NW, and I were at @SouthNarc's ECQC last weekend. During evolutions (pressure testing scenarios) of gun grappling with Glock 17T (UTM paint marking trainers), I observed mags falling out of the gun 3 times just as a consequence of handfighting for control. In each case, the person didn't realize the gun had no mag, and repeatedly tried remediation that failed. While accessing a spare mag while entangled seems unlikely, this does underscore the usefulness of carrying a spare.
    The case for HK's paddle mag release grows by the day, lol. I say that with the mind that it may be a different sort of movement required to depress it. Buttons are made to pushed in, levers rotate... would be interested to see data on this but know it's slim to none.

  5. #65
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Burch View Post
    Actually, I would argue that this result does not support carrying a spare mag.

    If someone cannot control the gun and the mag release is hit, then the chances that they will then be able to have enough control to put in a fresh mag is nil. What this result supports is the concept that a physical skillset trumps spare mags or even malfunction clearing. In all the times I have personally worked IFWA, I have never once had another person be able to hit the mag release on my gun. Because I did not give them the chance to do so.

    I am agnostic on someone carrying a spare mag. I think there are valid reasons not to, and I think there are equally vaild reasons to carry one, but being able to keep your pistol going in an entanglement is not one. If we want to argue gear solutions to that problem, then carrying a revolver is much more viable and justified.
    Thanks Cecil. Great post.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  6. #66
    Oh Dremel, Dremel, Dremel JCN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Burch View Post
    I am agnostic on someone carrying a spare mag. I think there are valid reasons not to, and I think there are equally vaild reasons to carry one, but being able to keep your pistol going in an entanglement is not one. If we want to argue gear solutions to that problem, then carrying a revolver is much more viable and justified.
    Thank you! As a pocket revolver fan, I was wondering how that would fare in the scenario listed.
    Currently I’m still within the acceptable dickhead parameter of PF 2017+.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Thank you! As a pocket revolver fan, I was wondering how that would fare in the scenario listed.

    Just to be clear - carrying in the pocket - even a perfect snub - when you are not familiar with how far away too close is, is not a good solution either.
    For info about training or to contact me:
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  8. #68
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    Being too old to be taken seriously, I would prefer a heel magazine release such as seen on P-38's and other handguns.
    This type fails less frequently compared to push button types. Also, they may aid in retaining the mag while grappling.

    Nobody mentioned this tactic: With a pistol that has a mag disconnect, during grappling one can jettison the mag and let the bad guy take possession of a dead gun. Then the good guy might draw a second weapon. Anyway, though most dislike mag disconnects, it's a moot point if one does not carry a spare mag.

    Most of us, even the younger guys, have no busy becoming involved in a wrestling match and trying to retain our handgun.

    A 30 year old friend is 6'8" tall and weighs 300 lbs. Recently he retired from pro football. He was an offensive tackle. He can cover a 10 yard distance in under 2 seconds from a motionless start. Size aside, many others can move fast too. We must be vigilant.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post

    Most of us, even the younger guys, have no busy becoming involved in a wrestling match and trying to retain our handgun.
    Yeah….

    Grappling over a gun is not collegiate sport that you have a choice about “becoming involved” with. No one sane looks for a gunfight entangled or otherwise.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    Yeah….

    Grappling over a gun is not collegiate sport that you have a choice about “becoming involved” with. No one sane looks for a gunfight entangled or otherwise.
    Of course not. Had I stated it better, I would have said that many of us lack skills to defeat an opponent in grappling contest. Though you inferred that I implied it was a collegiate contest, such was not my intention.

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