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Thread: Massad Ayoob: Three reasons why you need to carry extra ammo and magazines

  1. #71
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    So, reason #1 is the active shooter where I save the day with extra rounds. If my family is with me, I'm going to boogie on out of the danger zone and get them to safety. If I can smoke the badguy, great, but it's not my job to hunt bad men, anymore. The Lance Thomas example does not fit what most folks who CCW will face. A jewelry store that gets robbed on a schedule is apples/oranges to the threats I face in the suburban SF Bay Area. The second reason stated is that the magazine in the gun may fail. That is a reasonable assertion, but largely dependent on magazine type, e.g. Glock factory mags without aftermarket base plates or added capacity rarely fail, IME. 1911s are well-known for mag issues and when we issued them, both Beretta and HK USP mags failed if the mags bounced on the concrete partially loaded enough times. Finally, I'm not taking anyone into custody and if my mag falls out when grappling because I screwed up and got too close, it's not the first time I've hit someone in the head with a Glock.

    Frankly, I carry an extra G48 magazine in a 1791 kydex holder that has a knife clip on it in my off-side pocket because the threat has changed in the suburbs where I live. Although it occurred in Oakland, the Ersie Joyner shooting on October 21, 2021 is quite instructive. There are currently a number of underemployed rappers who travel around 3-4 deep and jump out on unsuspecting victims. One BOL flyer I saw had one suspect jumping out with an AR-pattern rifle. This is not just happening in Oakland or SF, but in "safe" communities like the one I live in and the one I used to work in.

    My J-frame in the strong side pocket with a speed strip is now a secondary gun, or an around the house gun for when I'm not wearing a gun.

    You've got to tailor what you carry to the problem you are likely to face. You can gather that information from local news reports, or being friends with one of the local constabulary. My relative who is still in the business, not a gun guy, and rarely carries more than a J frame off-duty, just asked me for advice because he wants a double stack 9mm to carry off-duty.

    Where you live, this might not be your problem and other gear solutions might be better for you.

  2. #72
    A very good friend, was approached at 9pm by two guys, when he was fueling at the gas station. He had his 365 with a dot and ten round magazine, but no spare. I told him he needs to roll heavier -- help convince him. I am almost always with my wife, who also has a pistol and spare mag.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  3. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    A very good friend, was approached at 9pm by two guys, when he was fueling at the gas station. He had his 365 with a dot and ten round magazine, but no spare. I told him he needs to roll heavier -- help convince him. I am almost always with my wife, who also has a pistol and spare mag.
    Ask him if he ever carries around just one condom at a given time. I mean, people worth shooting are often worth shooting multiple times....

  4. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Thy.Will.Be.Done View Post
    Ask him if he ever carries around just one condom at a given time. I mean, people worth shooting are often worth shooting multiple times....
    10 condoms for 2 women is typically enough

  5. #75
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paherne View Post

    You've got to tailor what you carry to the problem you are likely to face.
    I am going to pick this one out of an otherwise reasonable post. Man, I get the concept as a platonic ideal, but my honest and frank sense is that there is no “likely” anymore. A body could be facing anything from a flash mob to a rare and random active shooter, to IEDs stateside (I’m fucking serious, btw: Mrs Totem and myself would have been at ground zero of an IED that made it into a netflix series, if not for a keen-eyed city employee—I’ve told that one here before) to EDPs, to substance abusers, to street bangers, to…

    Sure, the DD PDW with optic in a bag is cool for an active that emerges at your 12, but is a non-starter in an up-close street robbery initiated by ruse. A J-frame in the pocket is awesome while pumping gas, but is something I’d prefer to keep to myself if caught up in some sort of antifa flash mob fuckery… and so it goes.

    Maybe it’s just me coming hot off a good “attitude adjustment course” that I’ve seen enough times before to finally be able to start learning and processing, at a “conscious incompetence” level. Maybe it’s just a long weekend, drive, and some extra-curricular sport MUCing today. I dunno.

    All to say, I suspect that we need to tailor our *software* patches to as many of the problems we are likely to face that we ideally can, which really ranges from nothing (most probable) up to horrific tactical imbroglios so myriad as to escape our collective ability to catalog them all.

    Life is a crapshoot; get your SA game up, get some social literacy (and fluency) going, and learn to grapple enough to survive the initial surprise. You dance with what you bring. Don’t forget to look at the roses while counting thorns, too.

    Not at all aimed at you directly, paherne, as I suspect you may well have forgotten more life experiences than I’ve had in this arena; I’m just musing aloud at that conventional wisdom turn of phrase.

    @Cecil Burch, I hear you loud and clear, Maestro. I agree that someone will be solving the immediate problem—if it goes well—with what they’ve got left in the box, and without that spare mag. Problems tend to cluster and stack though.

    JMO.
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    I am going to pick this one out of an otherwise reasonable post. Man, I get the concept as a platonic ideal, but my honest and frank sense is that there is no “likely” anymore. A body could be facing anything from a flash mob to a rare and random active shooter, to IEDs stateside (I’m fucking serious, btw: Mrs Totem and myself would have been at ground zero of an IED that made it into a netflix series, if not for a keen-eyed city employee—I’ve told that one here before) to EDPs, to substance abusers, to street bangers, to…

    Sure, the DD PDW with optic in a bag is cool for an active that emerges at your 12, but is a non-starter in an up-close street robbery initiated by ruse. A J-frame in the pocket is awesome while pumping gas, but is something I’d prefer to keep to myself if caught up in some sort of antifa flash mob fuckery… and so it goes.

    Maybe it’s just me coming hot off a good “attitude adjustment course” that I’ve seen enough times before to finally be able to start learning and processing, at a “conscious incompetence” level. Maybe it’s just a long weekend, drive, and some extra-curricular sport MUCing today. I dunno.

    All to say, I suspect that we need to tailor our *software* patches to as many of the problems we are likely to face that we ideally can, which really ranges from nothing (most probable) up to horrific tactical imbroglios so myriad as to escape our collective ability to catalog them all.

    Life is a crapshoot; get your SA game up, get some social literacy (and fluency) going, and learn to grapple enough to survive the initial surprise. You dance with what you bring. Don’t forget to look at the roses while counting thorns, too.

    Not at all aimed at you directly, paherne, as I suspect you may well have forgotten more life experiences than I’ve had in this arena; I’m just musing aloud at that conventional wisdom turn of phrase.

    @Cecil Burch, I hear you loud and clear, Maestro. I agree that someone will be solving the immediate problem—if it goes well—with what they’ve got left in the box, and without that spare mag. Problems tend to cluster and stack though.

    JMO.
    I take no offense and welcome your criticism. This is truly, a problem for each of us. I've debated going back to a GEN 5 G19 because I have not adequately tested the Shield S15 mags in the G48 system. The sad fact is that I cannot carry a J frame and whistle Dixie through life's tribulations. I drove to the dumps today with my 19 year old son and we saw a number of savory characters on the drive through surface streets, to include 5+ urban outdoorsmen, one particularly musically talented tranny, and a tattooed Latin guy wearing headphones that was screaming a song in Spanish at the top of his lungs as he crossed the street. He was sweating, profusely, most likely from meth. My son looked at the guy and said, "Dad, that guy is high as hell, I want to CCW." My son is no shrinking violet; he was an O lineman for four years, is almost 6'5" tall and 220 lbs, plays number 8 on his rugby team and works out about three hours a day. Something is grievously wrong in our society and government is not going to fix the problem. We are all left to solve our own problems.

    I just have issues with you need an extra mag to solve an active shooter, no, you need an extra mag because your 1911 mags suck, I don't carry a 1911, and you need an extra mag because a guy might grapple with you. If I pull my pistol, someone is getting shot, most likely. The difference between Mas Ayoob and me is I've done this shit for real and he hasn't. It doesn't, however, mean he is wrong about carrying an extra mag. Life is complicated and simple solutions are rare.

  7. #77
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    A very good friend, was approached at 9pm by two guys, when he was fueling at the gas station. He had his 365 with a dot and ten round magazine, but no spare. I told him he needs to roll heavier -- help convince him. I am almost always with my wife, who also has a pistol and spare mag.
    He needs to roll smarter.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  8. #78
    Tactical Nobody Guerrero's Avatar
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    John from Active Self Protection has an interesting rebuttal:

    "The victor is not victorious if the vanquished does not consider himself so."
    ― Ennius

  9. #79
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Burch View Post
    If we want to argue gear solutions to that problem, then carrying a revolver is much more viable and justified.
    I'm not normally an advocate for a gear solutions to a problem. But I do think this is a good time for me to get on my Soapbox for a moment and remind folks to back away for a second and consider what their most likely scenarios are (more in a moment on this). And adjust accordingly. And if you're in a situation where an entangled fight seems more likely, then yea, go for it.

    That said, I wasn't there at ECQC this past weekend (I wish I had been and I'm still jealous). But my first thought from @Clusterfrack's description was. "You guys didn't need a spare mag, you needed a revolver."

    Quote Originally Posted by Totem Polar View Post
    Life is a crapshoot; get your SA game up, get some social literacy (and fluency) going, and learn to grapple enough to survive the initial surprise. You dance with what you bring. Don’t forget to look at the roses while counting thorns, too.
    I think you ultimately hit it here, man. The reality is, one cannot wander around with a Platoon of Marines and artie as backup. Instead, we have to use our best weapon (brains) to adapt to the situation. Importantly, in fact I'd argue most important in our radically changing society - concealment and surreptitiousness are tactics we should all be employing constantly. They give you surprise and speed of action, which takes primacy over your gear choice - we all know that at some level.

    We of course also recognize that more important than spare ammo is a range of tool options. Such that not all of our problems look like a nail when you're holding a hammer.

    Anyways, in case anyone is thinking I'm arguing against carrying spare ammo, I am not. That might be a bit silly for a guy who is working on a business right now making spare ammo carriers... - But if your choice ultimately comes down to buying a SLAB from Flamingo and Rob or buying POM - buy POM.

  10. #80
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post

    Anyways, in case anyone is thinking I'm arguing against carrying spare ammo, I am not. That might be a bit silly for a guy who is working on a business right now making spare ammo carriers... - But if your choice ultimately comes down to buying a SLAB from Flamingo and Rob or buying POM - buy POM.
    As an aside, I was struck by one evo in particular, that the whole thing was really one long POM problem, and commented as such. I think Craig’s words on another similar LEO evo dynamic were “Go ahead and paint those fuckers orange. Don’t get in the middle of that shit.” More or less; he’s an easy guy to take to heart, and a hard guy to quote exactly at speed.

    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

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