ACOG recommendations

[Josh Runkle]

I'd hardly consider the BDC to be training wheels for new soldiers....IIRC, the birth of the ACOG was marked by the use of our nations best warfighters, not the worst. In Afghanistan, 50% of engagements are occurring past 300 yards. A BDC and stadiametric rangefinder (especially) is most certainly an advantage in that threat environment but does not hurt your ability to respond to a 50 yard engagement, either.

True BDCs are built for one specific ammo type, twist rate and barrel length. To put a BDC on issued scopes would either assume that the military only uses one singular type of ammo (weight, manufacturer, bullet type, burn rate, etc), twist rate and barrel length on all weapons...

...or...it would assume that things are "relative", "close", or "good enough", that no one will really know the difference. Or if they do notice the difference, they assume their "gun" shoots a certain way on the range, and then they'll translate that to combat. Even if they use a similar (but different) ammo in combat. They either don't know any better, don't much care, or aren't good enough that it makes much of a difference.

BDCs for soldiers ARE training wheels.

I do agree that magnifiers on red dots or holographic sights are crap, though.

[RobG]

OK, let us abandon the ACOG requirement and I will rephrase the question. If you were to upgrade the iron sight M-4 that you will be issued for a trip to Afghanistan with a set of optics, what scope would you choose? This rifle will accompany you on daily drives in Kabul and weekly trips to FOB’s. This is not a 3 gun match application and will be used everyday for 9 months on a bidirectional shooting range.

It must:

1. Be compliant with any regulations regarding modifications to issued gear.
2. Be robust enough to withstand getting jarred around in a vehicle and other hard daily use in a harsh environment.
3. Improve the speed and accuracy of the platform at all ranges from “danger close” to “I think I see him way over there.”

It should:

4. Provide magnification to assist with threat identification at a distance.
5. Not cost so much more than $1250 (price of ACOG).

I am not opposed to a T-1 and magnifier set up, if it is robust enough for the intended application, and accurate enough at long distances.

[Kyle Reese]

OK, let us abandon the ACOG requirement and I will rephrase the question. If you were to upgrade the iron sight M-4 that you will be issued for a trip to Afghanistan with a set of optics, what scope would you choose? This rifle will accompany you on daily drives in Kabul and weekly trips to FOB’s. This is not a 3 gun match application and will be used everyday for 9 months on a bidirectional shooting range.

It must:

1. Be compliant with any regulations regarding modifications to issued gear.
2. Be robust enough to withstand getting jarred around in a vehicle and other hard daily use in a harsh environment.
3. Improve the speed and accuracy of the platform at all ranges from “danger close” to “I think I see him way over there.”

It should:

4. Provide magnification to assist with threat identification at a distance.
5. Not cost so much more than $1250 (price of ACOG).

I am not opposed to a T-1 and magnifier set up, if it is robust enough for the intended application, and accurate enough at long distances.

A Nightforce 1-4x24 with LaRue SPR mount appears to fit the bill, if one can get command approval.


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[Josh Runkle]

A Nightforce 1-4x24 with LaRue SPR mount appears to fit the bill, if one can get command approval.


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+1. The LaRue mounts are pretty nice too.

[NickDrak]

For the mission you describe a low power variable (either 1-4x or 1-6x max) would be ideal. I was able to check out the new 1-6x Vortex. It is built like a tank and the reticle illumination is awesome.

[SecondsCount]

I second the variable scope idea, currently running a Burris 1-4x TAC30 on a Larue SPR mount. While I have never jumped out of a vehicle to shoot at a threat, I have shot 3 Gun matches with distances varying between 10 feet and 300 yards. For me the variable power works better than a magnifier in that role.

While the glass in the Burris is very good and meets my needs, it is probably not something I would take into battle. The Nightforce, Trijicon, and Vortex products look much sturdier.

[JHC]

Now I think we're talking about the new Leu 1-8x Mark 8 http://swfa.com/Leupold-11-8x24-Mark...pe-P48095.aspx

[YVK]

Best of my knowledge is that most variables have battery life similar to Eotech, and battery life isn't exactly a selling point for eo. Changing battery in variable is harder than on a red dot, at least, on my NF it is a PITA to wrestle the cover off. And then you need to make sure you have the right batteries readily available, otherwise you'll find yourself without illum option. Obviously, NF optics have been used in the theater extensively, but you need to consider you chain of supply.
Re aimpoint/mag combo: every time I shoot it, I feel I am looking through a toilet paper roll tube. And my zero changes depending on whether I zero with or without mag. I also learned that with red dot my zero changes depending on lighting conditions. For my eyes, dot/mag plainly sucks.
You probably better of trying to borrow somebody's for a test run.

[DVCPrepper]

UD shooting... Just means you need to determine the distance before you are able to make hits. I would assume you don't have time to read a MD reticle or laser range your target so that leaves "walking" your rounds in or using a BDC reticle and walking in from the most appropriate line.

The NSN is the scope I chose for an all around 16" AR because it has a clean ranging reticle, is tough, good glass, and has trit for low light. The 4x is perfect for IDs on 100-500m and it super compact and light.

The bad is that 4x sucks for 0-50 and while the BAC does work, it slow and falls apart on this model on moving targets under 100m compared to a T1 dot.

Answer is the NSN with a T1 in a Larue offset mount. Best of both worlds.

I ran a TR24 post in 3gun and you are good out to 300m without a BDC or ranging reticle but thy are big and heavier than the NSN and T1 combined.

It's pricey, but if you are looking for the fastest Minute of Man setup for 0-600m I doubt you will find anything faster.

If you need headbox shots at those ranges then I would look at an offset T1 and a 2.5-10x mildot scope that is compact to use with it.

The 11'S are a great compromise scope but the dual setup described above has no weakness that I can find and holds up to 1-6x scopes in 3gun on 12" plates out to 400m no problem, but its sweet spot is MOM hits out to 600m at speed.

You can get a used NSN for $700 and a T1/H1 for $500 pretty quickly if you search the forums via riverofguns.com

[JHC]

I don't know if BDC is for lazy shooters or not but I like it. I used the "6" on a TA01 at 600 yards pretty effectively the one time I tried it on our club's 600 range.

Interesting somewhat related info from Kyle Defoor here: http://kyledefoor.tumblr.com/