Active Shooter Uvalde TX Elementary School

[fixer]

While nowhere near the tragedy of the actual event, this thread has caused me a lot of consternation over people I previously respected. I guess once someone is that dug in, there is no going back.

Same here and just about done.

[breakingtime91]

I'm assuming you're referring myself and HCM.

FWIW, some of us have a responsibility to figure out what went wrong and try to find better ways forward. I'm trying to set up a breaching class with a local fire dept for my office, for example, as we had discussed earlier the excellent knowledge and skills that FDs have in opening doors. I don't want my colleagues to think a metal door is simply insurmountable, and learn some realistic ways that we can attack that problem.

If trying to have a dispassionate discussion on this instead of joining in a dog-pile means we are "dug in", so be it. Some of us can't afford to just write shit on the internet about how everyone else is a coward and call it good.

They had steel doors in school? Do you know the type of the door?

[UNM1136]

Pat, I honestly have a hard time imagining you or anyone here, or anyone I know, pounding on a steel door with an inefficient tool to open it as rounds are coming through it...and then the next person doing it after you get shot, and rinsing and repeating that cycle 30x over.

That's not a natural human response, and is an expectation that is inconsistent even with video footage of hardened tactical teams making an entry through a door when fire erupts.

QUOTE=fixer;1372983]The video shows the shooter hitting the door with a volley of fire before going in. It is also a fact that the door was never locked.

The door never being locked is something we learned after the fact. If we are to judge a person's actions in the moment, we need to judge them by their knowledge in the moment...not 20/20 hindsight.

So, if the arriving cops on scene were being told by the initial cops on scene that the door was locked, then we need to assess their actions assuming that information known to them. This is the same logic that lets you not go to jail if you shoot someone in self defense and it turns out the gun or knife you thought to be real is a toy.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. In general. Facts known at the time...Specifically applicable there was lots to do in that hour. Recon, preparing, trying...The first rule of breaching, IMO being "try the knob". We have discussed breaching ad nauseum. Someone needs to step up and do it. Eventually someone will. And did.

Yes, it is against human nature to stand in the fatal funnel. There are techniques to mitigate the risks, but you signed up for a job that gives you body armor and a gun, and your employer expects you to use them. The risk is explicit, and very real. I think I would be literally shitting myself, but would step up, if only to prove to my mentors that I had the stones and was worthy of their tutelage.

As I have said before, I fear being judged by my mentors and peers FAR more than being judged by the public, and my mentors are/were some hard dudes.

pat

[WobblyPossum]

Window breach was the answer here, in my opinion. Outward opening, commercial steel doors can be rough.

I don’t think all the officers there were cowards, but I do certainly think they failed in nearly every way possible. All it would have taken is one guy leading the charge and others would have followed. The same thing happened in the Chattanooga active shooter/terrorist attack I referenced earlier. The responding officers froze up outside the Reserve Center. All it took was one old-head officer getting there and saying, “We gotta go,” and they snapped out of it and followed.

I think a window breach might have worked well too. I didn’t make any comments about it initially because most schools I’m familiar with had first floor windows that were still 5-6 feet above the ground outside. Those would take guys on ladders (slow climb with substantial risk of getting shot in the face by anyone inside the house) or guys having to do pull ups in their kit (slow to impossible for probably half of officers) without anyone outside being able to provide effective lethal cover because of the upward angle they would have. Then I saw the ALERRT report which mentioned the exterior windows were only about 4 feet from ground level. Guys would easily be able to just stand upright and provide effective lethal cover into the room through the windows for others who were climbing in.

The same guys had to have seen the damage to the door upon initial engagement and after the rounds that looked like they went through when shooter was on other side.

Not exactly a leap of reasoning to at least question the integrity of the door to the point where trying to open it was reasonable.

It definitely sucks that no one tried the door. That likely would have helped the initial responders to keep their aggressive momentum instead of getting bogged down in the hallway. If you know the door is unlocked it takes away any rationalization for inaction that centers around not having the gear to mechanically breach and make entry. Seeing a bunch of bullet holes in the door wouldn’t give anyone a reasonable belief about whether the door was locked or unlocked, though. Putting a magazine worth of .22 caliber holes into a decent steel door doesn’t do much to diminish its “integrity” with respect to a mechanical breach if the hinges and lock are still intact.

[WobblyPossum]

They had steel doors in school? Do you know the type of the door?

From the ALERRT report.

[TGS]

They had steel doors in school? Do you know the type of the door?

BT91,

It's been widely reported that the classroom door was a metal door. Whether that's steel or pig iron, I don't know, I honestly was just using the word "steel" probably the same way people call off-brand tissues a Kleenex. Sorry if it was inaccurate.

As for the specific door in question at Uvalde, I'm unaware of what model/manufacture door.

[breakingtime91]

BT91,

It's been widely reported that the classroom door was a metal door. Whether that's steel or pig iron, I don't know, I honestly was just using the word "steel" probably the same way people call off-brand tissues a Kleenex. Sorry if it was inaccurate.

As for the specific door in question at Uvalde, I'm unaware of what model/manufacture door.

I'm not talking shit. Asking for my own professional understanding brother

[BWT]

This honestly to me still boils down to. Let people defend themselves.

That’s my opinion and this new data only reinforces that.

If folks cooperate to being mass murdered like they did at Virginia Tech. Alright, but give people the chance IMHO and it’s our right anyway.

I’ve been to the range 3 times, started almost a daily dry fire routine, bought different magazine carriers, re-worked a spare holster to have a spare for concealment dryfire, bought another handgun, 10 spare magazines, on a waitlist for a enclosed RDS, etc. because to be honest. I’m preparing for the razor thin chance this happens to me and my family and have been for over a month now.

YMMV.

ETA: Re-reading all of those anecdotes to say. After the Buffalo shooting incident - it was the conviction to get my crap together.

[UNM1136]

This honestly to me still boils down to. Let people defend themselves.
...
If folks cooperate to being mass murdered like they did at Virginia Tech.

Huh? Could you please flesh that out a little more?

VATech is the example of what works, and what doesn't IMO, and in the federally sponsored active shooter training. The training I agree with and teach to local chuches and my kids' school, both to the kiddos and during teacher in-service.

Some did nothing and died. Some did nothing and lived. Some took actions and died. Some took action and lived.

pat

[BWT]

Huh? Could you please flesh that out a little more?

VATech is the example of what works, and what doesn't IMO, and in the federally sponsored active shooter training. The training I agree with and teach to local chuches and my kids' school, both to the kiddos and during teacher in-service.

Some did nothing and died. Some did nothing and lived. Some took actions and died. Some took action and lived.

pat

I was looking for an Article and you corroborated what I was trying to find. Folks did nothing and died. My perspective is - if someone comes in the room with a gun. You need to do everything you can to resist.

https://www.police1.com/school-safet...5YCckv0Jm51iN/

The best I could do was find the point blank head shots, etc. cited here. You know… this Uvalde situation is reminiscent in some ways. People waiting for a solution to arrive or someone to save them. I just think the best decision one can come to practically is - nobody will be there in time to help and you’ll have to work with who’s there and what weapons you can find/improvise (if you have that much time).

ETA: What I was getting at is let folks conceal carry to defend themselves if able.