Active Shooter Uvalde TX Elementary School

[El Cid]

Thanks for clarifying that. I did see BHP/BP guys at the near end of the hallway, but they were there for a while (as you stated).

The team that ended the monster was literally prepping for an explosive breach because they’d been told the door was unable to be breached. While this was happening they got the word a master key was provided and then made entry.

[JRB]

The issue of sidelining the teachers husband is separate from the cluster in the hallway. With all the failures (leadership and otherwise) in that video sidelining him is one of the few things which was done right.

To be blunt arguing that injecting someone with a personal connection and compromised judgement is likely to make a bad situation better tells me that you have no experience or background on this. Uvalde is not first time personal involvement has been a factor in a critical incident. Sidelining personnel with personal connections and resulting compromised judgement is critical incident management 101.

The officer in question was the husband of a teacher. There is definitely more going in there than just “scared” going on. Obviously he’s gonna be scared for his wife but he’s also going to be distraught and angry none of which = good judgment. Not only does that reduce the chance of him being effective but he’s a distraction and there is a very real possibility harming himself.

Agreed in principle about separating folks with personal involvement. That is a good idea so long as other people are actually fucking *doing* something.

In the context of this situation, there was zero good judgement and zero motivation. At least that husband had motivation and gave a fuck, which is better than what the majority of those fart-sniffers were doing. Ergo, I'd rather have an 'emotionally compromised' but trained and equipped individual do literally fucking ANYTHING vs have a bunch of shitheels shitheel around and pick boogers and sanitize their hands. I think that's the point most of us are making.

When it comes to saving dying kids, I'd expect a grocery store bag boy to do better than those shitheels did.

[Sensei]

We don't allow doctors to operate on their own sick child.

Actually, we do and I have...operated on my own kid, that is. In fact, I’ve been called on to save the life of more friends and family members in exigent circumstances than I’d like to count because nobody else around me was capable.
Virtually every emergency physician working in a single coverage shop has been put in the situation of treating family and friends to save a life or limb.

What people are forgetting is that we are sometimes called on to do our jobs in circumstances where we have emotional attachments that would normally be handled by some other capable party, but those other resources don’t exist.

I think that people are also failing to realize that there are exceedingly rare instances where the fact that the police are present doesn’t necessarily mean that they are behaving like police. Take for example the the Floyd case in MN. Multiple cops were present, but none of them were behaving like cops. Thus, there is the very unusual circumstance where a civilian witness would have been justified in using physical force to stop the police and prevent a murder. Thus, I’m not willing to rule out the possibility of civilian intervention resulting in a more favorable outcome simply because there were a lot of guys and gals with badges standing around and not acting like cops.

[UNM1136]

They may not be 'woke',, but the factors I described above may very well have inuenced their recruiting, hiring, and training. They very likely may not be the right person for the job.

By the way, I consider the Punisher Logo shit to be a huge red flag, and I'm not too fond of the over use of the thin blue line flag either. Especially in uniform, or on duty gear? That's just fucking retarded. Desperate recruiting/hiring of unqualified people due to no sane person wanting the job is also part of the problem.

Right there with you. In the early 2000s I REALLY liked the whole sheepdog reference and example from Grossman. Then a whole bunch of marginals and retards glomed onto it and today everyone rolls their eyes when they hear it.

I was a fan of Frank Castle when I was a teen...in the 80s...but he was a Punisher, an executioner, a vigilante... not at all what we do. He was a minor Spiderman character for goodness sake. Didn't even have his own comic untill, what 88? 90?

And I am currently dueling with the supervision about wearing an American Flag on my winter jacket. I am pretty sure the thin blue/red/green line flags violate the US Flag Code, but I could well be wrong. I am at the deputy chief level for final consideration, and will take the decision when it comes down.

Punisher, spartan helmet, and thin blue line guys seem to be...LARPing? Especially when displaying those emblems in uniform. They are called uniforms, so officers can be, well, uniform. Identifiable. Professional looking.

Two nights ago I was on scene on a car stop. Caller said occupants were pulling on the doors of a closed building. When confronted, they threw rocks at the caller. Found them in a parking lot 25 yards away. Car had no tags, no insurance. Rookie rolls up, interviews the caller. Comes and tells me, the supervisor, the story. Both vehicle occupants have warrants from the next county over, only one of which is extraditable. By now we have five cops on scene, and several couldn`t hear the warrant stuff over the air, either time the dispatcher read it to them, so the cell phones came out for confirmation. Three cops were bumbling around; I knew who was going to jail, who wasn't, and what we were going to do with the car. Then a senior officer goes and re-interviews the caller. Comes to me and tells me the exact same story. What? C'mon guys....decide what we are doing and freaking DO IT! Rookie makes the arrest for the warrant, and then wants to run the VIN. Good police work, poor time management. Finally tell the guys "alright, quit dicking around, let's get back to work". By my estimation (and that of my senior road dog) my guys were there for more than a half hour more than they needed to be. Arrestee transported, and while another officer starts booking paperwork Rookie starts looking for video cameras. So he can charge the other subject with a misdemeanor that occurred outside his presence. Without a victim agreeing to testify...So he could apply for a petty misdemeanor warrant so sometime in the future the other subject will get arrested...

A case that will never go anywhere...huh? What? Dude, handle your shit. This ain't the crime of the century. After transporting the prisoner the rookie had the nerve to complain about catching these arrests "in the last hour of the work week." He had stuff to do in his time off. Had he made a simple decision earlier, he would have been off work on time.

Five cops on scene. Two decision makers, the rest seem to be Keystone Cops, who would have issues bumbling their way out of a wet paper bag.

The quality of new guys today is VERY disturbing.

pat

[AMC]

You're right, I don't have any experience taking cover in a hallway while kids die and denying a man the ability to enter a school to save his dying wife.

Sarcasm aside, I said I had a hard time seeing him making it worse. There was already a fuck ton of cowards hanging around doing absolutely nothing, at least he was willing to go in. He might have ran in there and shit his pants, but we'll never know. There's a lot of scenarios where I would have agreed with keeping him out, like say, Uvalde PD was actually making a halfway decent attempt to put an end to this rampage. They weren't, and God only knows how long it would have went on if BORTAC hadn't got there. By letting him go in, we may have ended up with a worse outcome, but I highly fucking doubt it.

As husbands and fathers, our duty is to protect our wives and kids to the best of our ability. Even if that means laying down our lives. You may die, but you have to try. That's the bare minimum.

Guys, two things can be true at the same time. It is 100% true that it was a correct decision to remove an emotionally compromised officer from the scene, and it is also 100% true that every other decision made by the folks present appears to have been wrong. These things are not mutually exclusive. Saying "I don't see how it could get any worse!" demonstrates a lack of experience in just how fucked up things can get.

Everybody is somehow misconstruing support for that ONE correct decision for a defense of the overall LE response to this incident. I get that we're all emotional about this. I have kids in school, and until a few weeks ago my job included training officers in the skills they'd need to respond to such an incident. We're all heavily invested in getting this right. Some folks on here are adding nuance, and frankly trying to explain that the problem isn't simply 'cowardice', but is actually much worse and harder to address. Attacking those voices isn't gonna fix the problem.

ETA: and I agree with @TC125. You wouldn't take my gun, and you'd literally have to kill me to stop me going in.

[Eric_L]

Guys, two things can be true at the same time. It is 100% true that it was a correct decision to remove an emotionally compromised officer from the scene, and it is also 100% true that every other decision made by the folks present appears to have been wrong. These things are not mutually exclusive. Saying "I don't see how it could get any worse!" demonstrates a lack of experience in just how fucked up things can get.

Everybody is somehow misconstruing support for that ONE correct decision for a defense of the overall LE response to this incident. I get that we're all emotional about this. I have kids in school, and until a few weeks ago my job included training officers in the skills they'd need to respond to such an incident. We're all heavily invested in getting this right. Some folks on here are adding nuance, and frankly trying to explain that the problem isn't simply 'cowardice', but is actually much worse and harder to address. Attacking those voices isn't gonna fix the problem.

ETA: and I agree with @TC125. You wouldn't take my gun, and you'd literally have to kill me to stop me going in.

Good job- keeping emotionally involved guy out. Flip side- if I was that guy I’d go in, or have to be stopped up to being killed? ?

[TGS]

The team that ended the monster was literally prepping for an explosive breach because they’d been told the door was unable to be breached.

I think everyone needs to take a breath and read what El Cid just wrote. This thread has devolved into an unhealthy self-aggrandizing dogpile. For both my fellow LEOs and the non-LEO members here, take a moment to breath and ask yourself what you would have done if you arrived on scene as a responding LEO, got into the hallway, and been told by the apparent officer in charge that the shooter is behind a locked steel door and we are unable to breach it. You, as the responding LEO, do not possess any specialized breaching skills or equipment. You are also told that a tactical team is on the way, or that a plan is being formed...something to that effect.

Take a breath and think about that. Often times, "I wUld HAv Tak3n caRe of BUSINESS bekuz I'm n0t a fucking pussy slackjaw f@gg0t COWARD like dem!" is not a terribly realistic assessment of a situation, regardless of however much it strokes your ego behind the keyboard with selective-memory on cherry picked facts to suit your viewpoint.

[JRB]

Edit : I'll just calm down, have a drink, and revisit this thread tomorrow.

[TGS]

Edit : I'll just calm down, have a drink, and revisit this thread tomorrow.

Fist bump

[Casual Friday]

I think everyone needs to take a breath and read what El Cid just wrote. This thread has devolved into an unhealthy self-aggrandizing dogpile. For both my fellow LEOs and the non-LEO members here, take a moment to breath and ask yourself what you would have done if you arrived on scene as a responding LEO, got into the hallway, and been told by the apparent officer in charge that the shooter is behind a locked steel door and we are unable to breach it. You, as the responding LEO, do not possess any specialized breaching skills or equipment.

Take a breath and think about that. Often times, "I wUld HAv Tak3n caRe of BUSINESS bekuz I'm n0t a fucking pussy slackjaw f@gg0t COWARD like dem!" is not a terribly realistic assessment of a situation, regardless of however much it strokes your ego behind the keyboard with selective-memory on cherry picked facts to suit my viewpoint.

Did someone in this thread say that? Because I don't remember seeing it but it's a long thread and I might have missed it.