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Thread: Active Shooter Uvalde TX Elementary School

  1. #1031
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyotesfan97 View Post
    One early morning about 0330 hours we had a hostage barricade in a small one bedroom/two room apartment with two females and three kids locked in a bedroom with the drugged suicidal male outside in the family room area threatening to break down the door and kill them all. Intel was he was armed with a 1911. Dispatch was on the phone with one of the victims. The Officers there were mostly new with a newer LT. They basically had set up a firing line perimeter and the LT had no plan to make entry if shooting started inside. LT believed it didnít meet protocols for an active shooter entry.

    One of my K9 partners was already on-scene, he had notified the SWAT commander and the callout was getting started. When I got there I started gearing up for an entry. I talked to my partner who was putting on his heavy stuff too. We were basically going to ignore the patrol LT and move up to LCC (last cover and concealment) and make entry if the suspect started shooting or breaching the bedroom door. We had one other SWAT guy who was a lateral from another agency that was going to go with us. So basically three of us were planning on telling the patrol LT to fuck off based on tactical being on the way and do a small HRT if needed.

    As we were moving up to where we were going to stage the suspect exited the apartment, complied, and was taken into custody so it all ended up being a moot point. The debrief was heated. The patrol LT and the Sergeant still were arguing it wasnít an active shooter in a public place and they wouldnít have made entry if the suspect started shooting victims. We argued it was and we werenít willing to have five victims shot and killed while we stood outside. There was another LT there who agreed with us but he wasnít in charge. So itís possible to have someone in charge whoís willing to let five people die because itís not policy.

    This was a pretty specific incident where the details allowed a very fast response on entry. From the layout we probably couldíve engaged the suspect when the door was breached. We were also aware we were looking at some possible bad times for not listening to the IC.
    Did you guys not utilize the concept of 'Crisis Entry' at that point? Even for our patrol guys, much less SWAT, that would be considered a homicide in progress. We don't stand around and wait at that point. Just because it's not an 'Actove Shooter' doesn't mean it's not homicide.

    I've pushed back on Lieutenants in simular circumstances, and also pulled back on the reigns and said 'No....we're not doing that' when one wanted to make a crisis Entry on what was clearly a bullshit call. It's important to be right.

  2. #1032
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    Did you guys not utilize the concept of 'Crisis Entry' at that point? Even for our patrol guys, much less SWAT, that would be considered a homicide in progress. We don't stand around and wait at that point. Just because it's not an 'Actove Shooter' doesn't mean it's not homicide.

    I've pushed back on Lieutenants in simular circumstances, and also pulled back on the reigns and said 'No....we're not doing that' when one wanted to make a crisis Entry on what was clearly a bullshit call. It's important to be right.
    Yes we do. That was discussed and IIRC the response was basically they didnít think they had the Officers with the experience to do it. Plus they didnít seem to think they could justify it. Our response was you have to deal with the crisis with what you have. So I guess there were two issues one being they didnít think they could justify an entry and two being they didnít think they could do it with the patrol on-scene. It was dealt with through our chain of command to the patrol division. We had nothing come back on us and we pissed off a LT and a Sergeant.

    I guess my point is if you have the meat eaters there and they know they can justify it shit will get done. You just have to be aware there will be ramifications. If we had started to make entry and the LT had told us to stop the train wouldíve kept rolling. Iíd have framed the complaint next to the life saving award.
    The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.* Thucydides 471BC

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  3. #1033
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyotesfan97 View Post
    the response was basically they didnít think they had the Officers with the experience to do it. Plus they didnít seem to think they could justify it...<snip>

    one being they didnít think they could justify an entry and two being they didnít think they could do it with the patrol on-scene. It was dealt with through our chain of command to the patrol division. We had nothing come back on us and we pissed off a LT and a Sergeant.

    sing on, brother

    I guess my point is if you have the meat eaters there and they know they can justify it shit will get done. You just have to be aware there will be ramifications. If we had started to make entry and the LT had told us to stop the train wouldíve kept rolling. Iíd have framed the complaint next to the life saving award.
    Let that train roll.

    I can be a Walmart greeter for the rest of my life, if it came to that. But I could not sleep knowing I had the chance to intervene in a homicide (@ AMC) and didn't try to prevent it.

    You can be hung for trying, or you can be hung for not trying. Getting hung isn't the issue. Trying to save lives is.

    pat

  4. #1034
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Let that train roll.

    I can be a Walmart greeter for the rest of my life, if it came to that. But I could not sleep knowing I had the chance to intervene in a homicide (@ AMC) and didn't try to prevent it.

    You can be hung for trying, or you can be hung for not trying. Getting hung isn't the issue. Trying to save lives is.

    pat
    When we originally taught First Responder/Active Shooter tactics years ago, we very much emphasized the ethic (including to supervisors/managers going through the training) "Lead, Follow, or get the F#$k out of the way!"

    That does not appear to be the ethic taught anymore for Active Killer response.

  5. #1035
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    When we originally taught First Responder/Active Shooter tactics years ago, we very much emphasized the ethic (including to supervisors/managers going through the training) "Lead, Follow, or get the F#$k out of the way!"

    That does not appear to be the ethic taught anymore for Active Killer response.
    Very much agreed...

    pat

  6. #1036
    Site Supporter BaiHu's Avatar
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    Just when you thought Uvalde could get worse.
    BREAKING: A rifle-armed Uvalde officer sighted in to shoot the Robb Elementary attacker before he entered the school but instead waited for supervisor permission -- one of many new revelations in a report obtained today by national experts about the May 24 police response.

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  7. #1037
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Iím not going to defend the lack of police response. However I think the broader context of the BLM anti police movement, and widespread political support for it set the stage for this debacle. When every law enforcement officer feels like the criminal and civil crosshairs are following them and any use of force could put them in prison and bankruptcy, what do we expect?

    If we want meat eating LEOs who will shoot when they perceive a lethal threat, we need to support that with training, and also with legal and political protection for them.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
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  8. #1038
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    When every law enforcement officer feels like the criminal and civil crosshairs are following them and any use of force could put them in prison and bankruptcy, what do we expect?
    I'd rather take my chances with that than not take the shot and watch the replay my dot on the shooter for the rest of my life.
    Last edited by Hambo; 07-06-2022 at 03:58 PM.
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  9. #1039
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    Here is the link to the actual report from the Alerrt center:

    https://www.alerrt.org/

    (Have to download it).
    "I'm here live. I'm not a cat."

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  10. #1040
    Quote Originally Posted by BaiHu View Post
    Just when you thought Uvalde could get worse.
    BREAKING: A rifle-armed Uvalde officer sighted in to shoot the Robb Elementary attacker before he entered the school but instead waited for supervisor permission
    Well...that's ridiculous. As I told my guys countless times as a patrol sergeant, when they'd call me for permission to stuff a door: if you think you have time to ask me, you either don't have exigency, or you're dicking around when you should be through the door already.

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