Active Shooter Uvalde TX Elementary School

[UNM1136]

@TCinVA

For some reason I can't directly quote.

"Whoever is in charge will determine that" is a clear sign of no one being in charge. If no one is in charge then the decisions fall into the Stack.
Step up, make the squeeze, and follow through the door. Or lead through the door. I really don't care. Get through the door.

pat

[Lon]

The main reason I tend discount the ICS stuff for active shooter. The Rules say senior guy on the scene responds and sets up ICS. I can do one or the other, as a lowly patrol cop. Based on my observations of my peers, many of them are better off going in than trying to run the scene. Would I rather them sort the problem out, or coordinate triage and media relations?

Mutual aid and second wave responders can take care of incident command. I want my guys taking care of the incident.
pat

I had an interesting conversation last night about ICS. Fire does ICS better than LE. Hands down. One of the issues w LE and ICS and sudden emergency incidents is that we often respond solo or two at the most. If a patrol sergeant shows up first on an active shooter, we expect him to go find bad guy, not set up an IC. No one expects the Batt Chief who shows up first on a fire to go extinguish the fire by himself. He’s supposed to take time to evaluate where he needs assets and what needs done first (rescue, etc.). Depending on who you talk to, it should be the second or third supervisor showing up who should set up an IC on something like what we’re talking about.

[UNM1136]

I had an interesting conversation last night about ICS. Fire does ICS better than LE. Hands down. One of the issues w LE and ICS and sudden emergency incidents is that we often respond solo or two at the most. If a patrol sergeant shows up first on an active shooter, we expect him to go find bad guy, not set up an IC. No one expects the Batt Chief who shows up first on a fire to go extinguish the fire by himself. He’s supposed to take time to evaluate where he needs assets and what needs done first (rescue, etc.). Depending on who you talk to, it should be the second or third supervisor showing up who should set up an IC on something like what we’re talking about.

Preach, Brother...

pat

[BWT]

I had an interesting conversation last night about ICS. Fire does ICS better than LE. Hands down. One of the issues w LE and ICS and sudden emergency incidents is that we often respond solo or two at the most. If a patrol sergeant shows up first on an active shooter, we expect him to go find bad guy, not set up an IC. No one expects the Batt Chief who shows up first on a fire to go extinguish the fire by himself. He’s supposed to take time to evaluate where he needs assets and what needs done first (rescue, etc.). Depending on who you talk to, it should be the second or third supervisor showing up who should set up an IC on something like what we’re talking about.

I’m a nobody and an outsider. I think part of it is how additional liabilities is a part of LE and not fire.

Leadership in LE is making grave decisions with the additional scrutiny because people are the originators of the problem. Fire departments solve problems where elements such as heat or the aftermath of an accident cause the problem. So it’s much more clear the situation that needs to be resolved and the cause / solution to it.

If a firefighter screws up - I haven’t seen riots over cell phone footage and how guys handle a fire hose putting out fires.

Everyone’s a bit more CYB in LE.

[Duces Tecum]

I had to look up the Leeroy Jenkins references . . . emboldenation in the original.

"The character became popular in 2005 from his role in a viral video of game footage where, having been absent during his group's discussion of a meticulous plan, Leeroy returns and ruins it by charging straight into combat while shouting his own name as a battle cry."

[feudist]

I had an interesting conversation last night about ICS. Fire does ICS better than LE. Hands down. One of the issues w LE and ICS and sudden emergency incidents is that we often respond solo or two at the most. If a patrol sergeant shows up first on an active shooter, we expect him to go find bad guy, not set up an IC. No one expects the Batt Chief who shows up first on a fire to go extinguish the fire by himself. He’s supposed to take time to evaluate where he needs assets and what needs done first (rescue, etc.). Depending on who you talk to, it should be the second or third supervisor showing up who should set up an IC on something like what we’re talking about.

Exactly.
Fire always rolls as a unit. Every fire is at least a mini incident on which to practice. And fire is a known quantity, plenty dangerous but not a murderous human.
I had basic ICS training once. It was a thousand foot overview that had zero relevance to me as a responding officer. My mission was to close and destroy. I was vocally opposed to waiting for any backup in an active killer situation, because of the cost of hesitation. I could see, based on my knowledge of the types of officers who get promoted, that any excuse to create the illusion of control in their minds would lead to delays and CYA stifling initiative.
Cowboy up. You have to GO.

[TC215]

The main reason I tend discount the ICS stuff for active shooter. The Rules say senior guy on the scene responds and sets up ICS. I can do one or the other, as a lowly patrol cop. Based on my observations of my peers, many of them are better off going in than trying to run the scene. Would I rather them sort the problem out, or coordinate triage and media relations?

Mutual aid and second wave responders can take care of incident command. I want my guys taking care of the incident.

Priority of life, immediacy...etc. When in doubt, decide on the side of stopping the killing, and stopping the dying.

If there can be victims, there probably are victims. Kinda hard to argue that a classroom during a school day will only contain the bad guy.

pat

ALERRT teaches that after the threat is neutralized, one of the officers there (be it a solo officer, team of 2, 4, whatever) establishes him/herself as IC. This person can direct where other resources need to respond until relieved by a supervisor, senior officer, etc. Someone has to take charge, and it needs to be someone on scene, not a supervisor who hasn’t made it there yet.

[HCM]

https://www.expressnews.com/news/art...m_medium=email

Police chief for Uvalde schools, Pete Arredondo, placed on administrative leave

Uvalde CISD Police Chief Pete Arredondo, believed to be the on-scene commander during a mass shooting nearly a month ago that resulted in the deaths of 19 children and two teachers, was placed on administrative leave Wednesday, the school system's superintendent said.

The move arrived a day after Texas Department of Public Safety Director Steve McCraw blasted the police response to the shooting, saying Arredondo “decided to place the lives of officers before the lives of children.”

From the beginning of this horrible event, I shared that the district would wait until the investigation was complete before making personnel decisions. Today, I am still without details of the investigations being conducted by various agencies," Dr. Hal Harrell, superintendent of the Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District, said in a statement. "Because of the lack of clarity that remains and the unknown timing of when I will receive the results of the investigations, I have made the decision to place Chief Arredondo on administrative leave effective on this date."

[idahojess]

Here is an hour or so of yesterday's Texas Senate hearing:

[UNM1136]

ALERRT teaches that after the threat is neutralized, one of the officers there (be it a solo officer, team of 2, 4, whatever) establishes him/herself as IC. This person can direct where other resources need to respond until relieved by a supervisor, senior officer, etc. Someone has to take charge, and it needs to be someone on scene, not a supervisor who hasn’t made it there yet.

And I don't disagree. After the threat is neutralized. Priorities and timing.

Based on what I have seen of these events there will be no shortage of agencies and personnel within 15-20 minites.

Tonight my squad is rollng with five people. If we need mutual aid we will be very much outnumbered by surrounding agencies in short order.

pat