Active Shooter Uvalde TX Elementary School

[TGS]

Ah so you're making things up and attributing statements to people that weren't made, or even implied to try to make your point more valid. They're cowards based on their actions/inactions=I would have Rambo'd the situation is a pretty big leap even for a govt employed order follower such as yourself.

Right, thanks. Glad you have something substantial to contribute other than thumping your chest at me. Good job hero, show us how it's done.

Granted, it’s been more than a decade, but I seem to recall in my last active shooter training that the response to a barricaded shooter is to continuously challenge the barricade and shooter with whatever tools are available (fire extinguisher, axe, etc). Is that not correct or perhaps has that training changed? Also, is there any public sources for what I’ve bolded?

In general yeah, that's still true, but unless we are talking about robots I think it's highly unrealistic to expect someone to stand in front of a steel door for 5 minutes and bang on it with a fireaxe while someone is reportedly shooting through the door at you. I'm having a hard time believing that everyone in there was a coward, especially people arriving X number down the line, and I'm not sure what a good phrase to summarize it would be. Using the reasonable officer standard, it strikes me as improbable that most people arriving 8th, 11th, 20th etc in the hallway would have performed differently than these guys.

As for the bolded statements, some of those are tidbits that have been reported, and covered earlier in this thread. Things like arriving cops being told the steel door was locked and whatnot. I don't have the references handy, and I don't have the details as to whether arriving officer #8 was told whereas #9 wasn't, etc etc. It seems highly likely to me that this occured, as opposed to the Borg Collective of America's most cowardly cops all arriving on scene together and using telepathy to all agree to stand down and let kids be killed for no reason, know what I mean?

Im trying to put myself in their shoes. If I rolled up 15 in line, 30 in line, 70 in line, 180 in line...I'm not sure I would have done anything different if I rolled up and was told what it appears the word on scene was. I have no special skills or equipment that is going to get me to breach a reportedly locked steel door while someone is reportedly shooting through it.

ETA: if I was number 1-3 on the door and improperly assessed the door to be locked, or didn't think to ask for a key when one was available, etc etc, I'm not sure I would be able to live with myself either.

[HCM]

For reference Joe Moody is a Texas Legislator and part of the committee investigating Uvalde.

[WobblyPossum]

The ALERRT report gave a couple of suggestions for what they thought the officers could/should have done. One of them was the doorway breach with an exterior team distracting the shooter simultaneously (flashbangs and a break and rake of an exterior window). Another was to attempt a manual breach with a halligan while another officer provided lethal cover through the small window in the center of the classroom door. I don’t think that would have worked as well. All the practice I’ve had using a halligan to breach a door basically requires me to stand directly in front of the door while a second guy just off to the side set the halligan with a ram or sledge. With the photo of the door and the little floor plan diagram provided in the report, I can’t see an officer effectively engaging anyone inside the room through that little window while another two officers were attempting to breach the door directly in front of him. There just doesn’t appear to be enough space for all of that to be done.

[TGS]

As I sent previously to someone in this thread, in a PM, our job, when the time comes, is TO GET IN THERE...a 10 minute breach sucks, and will cost lives, but you gotta do it... One minute or less would be ideal, but we don't get to choose the time or place, and only have what we brung with us...

I am still highly offended by the response of these "public safety emplyees"...

pat

Pat, I honestly have a hard time imagining you or anyone here, or anyone I know, pounding on a steel door with an inefficient tool to open it as rounds are coming through it...and then the next person doing it after you get shot, and rinsing and repeating that cycle 30x over.

That's not a natural human response, and is an expectation that is inconsistent even with video footage of hardened tactical teams making an entry through a door when fire erupts.

QUOTE=fixer;1372983]The video shows the shooter hitting the door with a volley of fire before going in. It is also a fact that the door was never locked.[/QUOTE]

The door never being locked is something we learned after the fact. If we are to judge a person's actions in the moment, we need to judge them by their knowledge in the moment...not 20/20 hindsight.

So, if the arriving cops on scene were being told by the initial cops on scene that the door was locked, then we need to assess their actions assuming that information known to them. This is the same logic that lets you not go to jail if you shoot someone in self defense and it turns out the gun or knife you thought to be real is a toy.

[TC215]

The ALERRT report gave a couple of suggestions for what they thought the officers could/should have done. One of them was the doorway breach with an exterior team distracting the shooter simultaneously (flashbangs and a break and rake of an exterior window). Another was to attempt a manual breach with a halligan while another officer provided lethal cover through the small window in the center of the classroom door. I don’t think that would have worked as well. All the practice I’ve had using a halligan to breach a door basically requires me to stand directly in front of the door while a second guy just off to the side set the halligan with a ram or sledge. With the photo of the door and the little floor plan diagram provided in the report, I can’t see an officer effectively engaging anyone inside the room through that little window while another two officers were attempting to breach the door directly in front of him. There just doesn’t appear to be enough space for all of that to be done.

Window breach was the answer here, in my opinion. Outward opening, commercial steel doors can be rough.

I don’t think all the officers there were cowards, but I do certainly think they failed in nearly every way possible. All it would have taken is one guy leading the charge and others would have followed. The same thing happened in the Chattanooga active shooter/terrorist attack I referenced earlier. The responding officers froze up outside the Reserve Center. All it took was one old-head officer getting there and saying, “We gotta go,” and they snapped out of it and followed.

[Casual Friday]

Right, thanks. Glad you have something substantial to contribute other than thumping your chest at me. Good job hero, show us how it's done.

Lmao I literally did none of that but call you on your bullshit comparison. For someone who likes to be rude and condescending every chance he gets you sure seem to be thin skinned.

[fixer]

Pat, I honestly have a hard time imagining you or anyone here, or anyone I know, pounding on a steel door with an inefficient tool to open it as round sare coming through it...and then the next person doing it after you get shot, and rinsing and repeating that cycle 30x over.

QUOTE=fixer;1372983]The video shows the shooter hitting the door with a volley of fire before going in. It is also a fact that the door was never locked.

The door never being locked is something we learned after the fact. If we are to judge a person's actions in the moment, we need to judge them by their knowledge in the moment...not 20/20 hindsight.

So, if the arriving cops on scene were being told by the initial cops on scene that the door was locked, then we need to assess their actions assuming that information known to them. This is the same logic that lets you not go to jail if you shoot someone in self defense and it turns out the gun or knife you thought to be real is a toy.[/QUOTE]

The same guys had to have seen the damage to the door upon initial engagement and after the rounds that looked like they went through when shooter was on other side.

Not exactly a leap of reasoning to at least question the integrity of the door to the point where trying to open it was reasonable.

[MVS]

While nowhere near the tragedy of the actual event, this thread has caused me a lot of consternation over people I previously respected. I guess once someone is that dug in, there is no going back.

[Sensei]

In general yeah, that's still true, but unless we are talking about robots I think it's highly unrealistic to expect someone to stand in front of a steel door for 5 minutes and bang on it with a fireaxe while someone is reportedly shooting through the door at you.

They wouldn’t have to stand in front of it for 5 minutes - it was unlocked and could have been easily opened according to all of the available public evidence…had someone applied fundamentals.

I didn’t think that I had forgotten or misremembered my training, but I wouldn’t have been surprised had you told me that things have changed. So, earlier in this thread I mentioned fundamentals - blocking and tackling. Had 1 person recognized early that whoever was calling the shots was not applying fundamentals, we likely would have had a more favorable outcome. Like I said, it usually takes just one person to step up to the plate and start doing.

[TGS]

While nowhere near the tragedy of the actual event, this thread has caused me a lot of consternation over people I previously respected. I guess once someone is that dug in, there is no going back.

I'm assuming you're referring myself and HCM.

FWIW, some of us have a responsibility to figure out what went wrong and try to find better ways forward. I'm trying to set up a breaching class with a local fire dept for my office, for example, as we had discussed earlier the excellent knowledge and skills that FDs have in opening doors. I don't want my colleagues to think a metal door is simply insurmountable, and learn some realistic ways that we can attack that problem.

If trying to have a dispassionate discussion on this instead of joining in a dog-pile means we are "dug in", so be it. Some of us can't afford to just write shit on the internet about how everyone else is a coward and call it good.