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Thread: Active Shooter Uvalde TX Elementary School

  1. #1051
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    In that broader context there may well be and probably is a "de-policing" incentive working in some jurisdictions. But in the narrower context of shooting someone in the Uvalde example who is engaging LE with his rifle and entering, then entered Rudd Elementary, I don't see it applying.

    From the latest report the info about an LEO waiting for permission to take the shot - contradicts their recent active shooter training and long doctrine. From the same report breaking contact and retreating when engaged by the killer while inside the school is the same.

    It all speaks to what Paul Howe called out a couple weeks ago.
    Obviously I'm not in law enforcement, so I can only speak about this second hand. I have two friends, formerly LEOs who I am confident would have taken that shot--one of them has already done it several times as a SWAT sniper. These are the kind of cops I want to arrive when there's a deranged killer threatening a school. Both left LE because of anti-police politics.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  2. #1052
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    In that broader context there may well be and probably is a "de-policing" incentive working in some jurisdictions. But in the narrower context of shooting someone in the Uvalde example who is engaging LE with his rifle and entering, then entered Rudd Elementary, I don't see it applying.

    From the latest report the info about an LEO waiting for permission to take the shot - contradicts their recent active shooter training and long doctrine. From the same report breaking contact and retreating when engaged by the killer while inside the school is the same.

    It all speaks to what Paul Howe called out a couple weeks ago.
    There is absolutely a correlation between "De-policing" and hesitation in use of force.

    I don't think it applies in this case, only because Uvalde TX is not under a consent decree, nor have they experienced significant "de-policing."

  3. #1053
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    I think De-policing has taken several forms, and has encroached on the profession from several directions. Something I was seeing for the last few years was an increasing tendency to defer decision making to higher ranks. Everyone was passing the buck "up". Incidents and actions that in the past would never have required a supervisor now did....because the cops didn't want to make a call. Part of the CYA culture that has really gripped a lot of large agencies. This is frankly how they're being trained, as well.

    Now that I'm no longer on the payroll and part of the system, I can discuss our most recent OIS. Watching the BWC video from that incident was horrendously painful on a number of levels. From a supervisor totally misdiagnosing the situation literally in front of him, to FAR too many cops on scene with FAR too many guns out....to an over reliance on tools (especially Less Lethal launchers and ballistic shields). It went badly, and it's likely several people will not have good outcomes as a result.

    I think this comes from a cultural shift, that is resulting in officers seeing new tactical training not as a new way to do your job effectively and produce better outcomes, but as a series of motions you need to go through to devolve responsibility away from yourself. This leads to the misdiagnosing and misapplication of tactics and tools. When that mindset takes hold in an agency, it's going to take generations to repair.

  4. #1054
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    The first time I tested for SWAT it was for a sniper position (I didn't get it, it went to a classmate of mine who beat me on the oral board by one question, and not this question).

    One of the oral board questions was: "You are on the gun at a hostage situation. You see the hostage taker point his gun at a hostage. The Incident/On Scene/SWAT Commander has NOT given the green light. What do you do?

    The correct answer is take the shot to save the life, and notify the Team ASAP so they can start an In Extremis Hostage Rescue. You are still a cop, with an oath to uphold.

    On my Probationary Board Interview we had a question: You are going to the local Stop-n-Rob and when you go to open the door it is locked. You look in, see a body on the floor, and the clerk seems to be wiping up the blood and cleaning up the scene. What do you do?

    The correct answer was call it in and get the cavalry rolling. Then get in there. Bust out the glass. Control and secure the clerk. Assess and treat the body as necessary. Then figure out what happened.

    Two days ago my guys did a High Risk Stop. Suspect was a juvenile, and drunk. No way to know that at the time. It would be generous to say the suspect was semi-compliant. Kinda followed instructions until kneeling. Officer moved in to handcuff, and suspect kept pulling away. Looked like a simian trying to reproduce with a soccerball. Told the rookie that if he couldn't secure him kneeling, to dump him on his fornicating face and secure him prone. Two lightbulbs went off as the rookie decided he "had permission", and the suspect realized "this is gonna hurt". Struggle stopped, one in custody.

    In today's touchy-feely world, active management is often necessary, and not to our betterment. But the new guys gotta learn. They are the FTOs and supervisors of tomorrow.

    Adult decisions. Decide. Act. Live with the consequences...

    I need to trademark that and sell it to FTOs and First Line Supervisors. Just think. Books.. The talk circuit...Training programs named after UNM1136 providing a retirement income...



    pat
    Last edited by UNM1136; 07-07-2022 at 01:06 PM.

  5. #1055
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC215 View Post
    The AAR is under Research --> Publications, then scroll to the bottom.

    It should be required reading before posting further in this thread.
    Done, and I'll stick with my previous post on taking the shot.
    Hambo's Original E-Burger, home of the 5G Energy Burger!

  6. #1056
    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    Done, and I'll stick with my previous post on taking the shot.
    I agree that in the totality of the circumstances an adequately trained officer should have known that he was legally justified in using lethal force.

    The fact that he asked the supervisor doesn't necessarily denote a lack of courage or decisiveness, rather it could have been a true case of never was caught in detail how to make such decisions.

    I remember one day one of our legal instructors (an attorney) walking out of a classroom where she had been instructing a reciprocity class and remarking to me 'The guy from (state name redacted) just asked me 'This Fourth Amendment, does it apply everywhere?'

    Not all places do an adequate job of teaching.

    I'm sure the officer is beating himself up enough, and probably will be for years, without me piling on him.

    Hambo, not directed at you, just wanted to get this out there.
    Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....

  7. #1057
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    The local library had Stop the Killing by Katherine Schweit on the new book shelf, so I checked it out. Basically a how to book on attacks on schools, businesses, government locales, mass gatherings, houses of worship etc. Discusses how civilians and law should plan and respond. She is ex-FBI and a consultant now, it seems.

    Decent info and resources. Nothing real new if you are into this, I suppose but if not up to speed - a good read. Resources on how to help victims after the incident which is good to have.

    Some slight quibbles. She is not really civilian gun positive and downplays the 'good guy with a gun' mantra as most civilians aren't trained and might shoot an innocent. Cites some screw ups by civilians and doesn't cite where it worked out to the good. Says the odds of having a good armed citizen outcome is so low that she comes down on opposing such but says if it does occur, training is needed. The small number of positive incidents ignores that many locales forbid carry and few people carry. However, I would like to see a breakdown of the success rate of an armed citizen when such actual does engage a shooter. Don't know if that's out there.

    Given Uvalde, she does equivocate a tad on first responders go in - says that but also discusses waiting for equipment, establishing a perimeter. Does mention using clothing for TQs which TGS has discussed but recommends locales have bleed out kits.

    Reasonable book despite some quibbles.

    On CNN they just discussed the 8 year old boy wounded at Highland Park. Stomach blown open and spine severed. They just managed to close up his stomach. Prognosis is guarded. Makes you tear up, wife and I did.

  8. #1058
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    A painful read.

    The lost opportunities, early in the incident, are especially glaring.

    I kept trying to type more, but, have decided to stop here, for now.
    Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.

    Don’t tread on volcanos!

  9. #1059
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    The Mayor of Uvalde disputes the claim that a UPD Officer failed to take a shot at the shooter outside the school.

    Prior to the release of the ALERRT report I had posted a local news story alleging this but note it was reported by the Chief Deputy of the Uvalde County Sheriff’s Office, despite the fact that no UCSO personnel were on scene prior to the shooter entering the school. Those who’ve been following the investigation are aware that the Texas legislature recently had to issue a subpoena to compel the Uvalde county sheriff to testify regarding the shooting. I just find it interesting that the sheriff was so eager to have his chief deputy throw UPD under the bus and then had to be compelled to testify before the legislature.

    Uvalde mayor: ALERRT report is inaccurate, does not provide complete account of Robb Elementary massacre

    McLaughlin takes particular issue with the report indicating that a Uvalde police officer requested permission to shoot the gunman outside the school, before he gained entry, but did not receive an answer so he didn’t shoot.
    “No Uvalde police department officer saw the shooter on May 24 prior to him entering the school. No Uvalde police officers had any opportunity to take a shot at the gunman,” McLaughlin said in a statement on Friday.

    “A Uvalde Police Department officer saw someone outside, but was unsure of who he saw and observed children in the area as well. Ultimately, it was a coach with children on the playground, not the shooter,” McLaughlin continued.
    https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022...tary-massacre/

  10. #1060
    Site Supporter ccmdfd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    The Mayor of Uvalde disputes the claim that a UPD Officer failed to take a shot at the shooter outside the school.

    Prior to the release of the ALERRT report I had posted a local news story alleging this but note it was reported by the Chief Deputy of the Uvalde County Sheriff’s Office, despite the fact that no UCSO personnel were on scene prior to the shooter entering the school. Those who’ve been following the investigation are aware that the Texas legislature recently had to issue a subpoena to compel the Uvalde county sheriff to testify regarding the shooting. I just find it interesting that the sheriff was so eager to have his chief deputy throw UPD under the bus and then had to be compelled to testify before the legislature.

    Uvalde mayor: ALERRT report is inaccurate, does not provide complete account of Robb Elementary massacre



    https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022...tary-massacre/
    Have they released the radio transcripts, or recording themselves yet? Seems like that would be a pretty easy thing to verify whether or not an officer asked for permission to shoot someone on the radio.

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