Active Shooter Uvalde TX Elementary School

[Coyotesfan97]

Sounds like the “in going home at the end of my shift” mentality that is repeated like a mantra by LEOs was well rooted

I remember in the Academy my class Sergeant talking about patrol tactics and discussing the danger. He said at the start of every shift he told himself today is a good day to die. It was from an Indian saying. He meant policing is a dangerous profession at times and you’d better be prepared to kill or die at any time.

From my old school training as I learned it the saying you quoted would be better phrased as you do whatever you have to do to go home at the end of shift. It wasn’t slacking or hiding it was meant to prepare you for life and death situations.

From a former SWAT guy trained in HRTs you learn several things. One is the priority of life which is who is the most valued. It’s Victims, Innocent bystanders, Officers, Suspects. So when we trained it was ingrained that if you were shot the train wasn’t stopping for you. The train was rolling for the victims to save and the suspect to most likely kill. We had IFACS and we knew it was one us to treat ourselves until the op was over. HRTs depend on speed, surprise, and violence of action. While you are doing one you are giving up a lot of personal safety to accomplish the mission. The Priority of Life is under attack in some areas but it’s the gold standard for SWAT.

On an HRT/Active Shooter you learn the mindset that the suspect is getting killed/stopped unless it’s overwhelmingly clear that he giving up. Like standing naked in the center of the room with his hands up screaming I give up. If he’s uncooperative and preventing you from getting to victims he going down. It’s a completely different mindset from normal policing. It has to be trained and ingrained. You have to flip the switch and go. We spent a lot of time training them and rarely had to do one. It’s a huge example of a high risk low frequency call.

I think it was in this thread I mentioned an incident where two other Officers and I were going to disregard the IC LT and make entry into an apartment if needed. We would’ve been backed by our tactical chain of command but it’d probably would’ve been a shit show for for awhile.

[Wake27]

Fantastic. Thanks.

Follow up: given these differences, if SF were hypothetically swapped for the officers that were on scene (same exact gear, same situation with no heads up and time to rehearse), in your opinion, would the outcome have been better in terms of lower body count or faster time to contact with shooter?

Sure, but definitely not an even comparison. Again Mike has more relevant experience to discuss the tactics around this in depth but he’s surely pushing his brand and still not an SME on the totality of the situation.

I’m more skeptical of training with guys from this type of crowd because I realized I was sometimes paying for guys who were so used to training only other GBs and SOF that they couldn’t work with less proficient shooters or under the circumstances of different situations. Not that dissimilar from this discussion.


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[GyroF-16]

Just a little thinking out loud on my weekly recycling center run this am.

Not only did it take the failure of two locks to make this tragedy happen, but the shooter just happened to encounter those particular doors right away.

IIRC (and i'm not going back to watch the video to confirm) not only did he approach the school from the direction of the unlocked exterior door, but once he was inside, he went directly to rooms 111 and 112, and this required him to take a turn in the hallway. He did not try to access, or even shoot into, any of the other rooms which were closer to him. He didn't just walk down the hall trying door after door.

Maybe just too much coffee this am (which is true), but damn that's a set of strange coincidences. Was he just that lucky?
Are malfunctioning door locks a lot more common than we are led to believe?

I actually had the same thoughts yesterday. I wonder how many doors WERE locked?

ETA - I’m not implying that there was some conspiracy, just that it seems an odd coincidence.

[HCM]

I actually had the same thoughts yesterday. I wonder how many doors WERE locked?

ETA - I’m not implying that there was some conspiracy, just that it seems an odd coincidence.

Good security is a hassle. How much was maintenance issues and how much was people avoiding inconvenience?

I’m also wondering about the maintenance request on the classroom door and whether the fact that it was the end of the school year impacted why it had not been fixed ? I.e. the maintenance guys put it off thinking they have all summer to fix all the little stuff. Or is it just part of the general “culture of corruption?”

The shooter did try to access at least one other classroom door but could not enter because the door was locked. The teacher in that locked classroom is the aunt of one of my co-workers.

[ccmdfd]

I actually had the same thoughts yesterday. I wonder how many doors WERE locked?

ETA - I’m not implying that there was some conspiracy, just that it seems an odd coincidence.

Good security is a hassle. How much was maintenance issues and how much was people avoiding inconvenience?

I’m also wondering about the maintenance request on the classroom door and whether the fact that it was the end of the school year impacted why it had not been fixed ? I.e. the maintenance guys put it off thinking they have all summer to fix all the little stuff. Or is it just part of the general “culture of corruption?”

The shooter did try to access at least one other classroom door but could not enter because the door was locked. The teacher in that locked classroom is the aunt of one of my co-workers.

Yeah I'm not trying to promote any conspiracy theories. Not my style, much more of simple explanation type.

Was the Aunt in 112? I did read he tried that one and it didn't work, but that was after he did a lot of damage in 111. Or did he try her door before 111? That's not in the report but would make things a little less odd.

Curious to learn about that maintenance request too.

[HCM]

Yeah I'm not trying to promote any conspiracy theories. Not my style, much more of simple explanation type.

Was the Aunt in 112? I did read he tried that one and it didn't work, but that was after he did a lot of damage in 111. Or did he try her door before 111? That's not in the report but would make things a little less odd.

Curious to learn about that maintenance request too.

Coworker said his aunt was across the hall. Not sure the room #.

I think both Occam and Hanlon’s razors apply here. But a lot did have to go the shooter’s way for this to turn out as they did.

[UNM1136]

I remember in the Academy my class Sergeant talking about patrol tactics and discussing the danger. He said at the start of every shift he told himself today is a good day to die. It was from an Indian saying. He meant policing is a dangerous profession at times and you’d better be prepared to kill or die at any time.

From my old school training as I learned it the saying you quoted would be better phrased as you do whatever you have to do to go home at the end of shift. It wasn’t slacking or hiding it was meant to prepare you for life and death situations.

From a former SWAT guy trained in HRTs you learn several things. One is the priority of life which is who is the most valued. It’s Victims, Innocent bystanders, Officers, Suspects. So when we trained it was ingrained that if you were shot the train wasn’t stopping for you. The train was rolling for the victims to save and the suspect to most likely kill. We had IFACS and we knew it was one us to treat ourselves until the op was over. HRTs depend on speed, surprise, and violence of action. While you are doing one you are giving up a lot of personal safety to accomplish the mission. The Priority of Life is under attack in some areas but it’s the gold standard for SWAT.

On an HRT/Active Shooter you learn the mindset that the suspect is getting killed/stopped unless it’s overwhelmingly clear that he giving up. Like standing naked in the center of the room with his hands up screaming I give up. If he’s uncooperative and preventing you from getting to victims he going down. It’s a completely different mindset from normal policing. It has to be trained and ingrained. You have to flip the switch and go. We spent a lot of time training them and rarely had to do one. It’s a huge example of a high risk low frequency call.

I think it was in this thread I mentioned an incident where two other Officers and I were going to disregard the IC LT and make entry into an apartment if needed. We would’ve been backed by our tactical chain of command but it’d probably would’ve been a shit show for for awhile.

Preach on, brother...

pat

[UNM1136]

Are malfunctioning door locks a lot more common than we are led to believe?

Malfunctioning or non used. Whatever you think of Grossman the last training I went with him indicated that when training school staff that their doors need to be kept locked. At at times. To keep bad guys out is a...

Non starter. If your door is locked all the time you need to carry your keys all the time. This is a problem. And one I have seen first hand. It is too inconvienient to carry your keys all the time.

I have framed it from the active shooter side, and from the side of having stuff stolen while on a potty break. Teachers don't care. Keeping thier doors locked and carrying keys is too much work. Work that they don't think they need to be doing...

pat

[Totem Polar]

I’m also wondering about the maintenance request on the classroom door and whether the fact that it was the end of the school year impacted why it had not been fixed ? I.e. the maintenance guys put it off thinking they have all summer to fix all the little stuff. Or is it just part of the general “culture of corruption?”

Tangent: unless the maintenance staff at elementary schools in small border towns is a whole hell of a lot better funded than maintenance staff at state universities, it probably takes a good while for shit to get done, and it’s not all out of laziness. There might be one dude responsible for fixing locks in that whole town, and it’s a take a number situation. I’ve seen written requests for door locks at the state U level go for over 2 years before some guy shows up to swap things out.

But, I don’t know. I’m a long way from Texas. Just saying that labor pool shrinkage—in all areas that are not critical until they are—is a thing.

I’ll sit back down and shut the fuck up now.

[HCM]

Tangent: unless the maintenance staff at elementary schools in small border towns is a whole hell of a lot better funded than maintenance staff at state universities, it probably takes a good while for shit to get done, and it’s not all out of laziness. There might be one dude responsible for fixing locks in that whole town, and it’s a take a number situation. I’ve seen written requests for door locks at the state U level go for over 2 years before some guy shows up to swap things out.

But, I don’t know. I’m a long way from Texas. Just saying that labor pool shrinkage—in all areas that are not critical until they are—is a thing.

I’ll sit back down and shut the fuck up now.

That makes sense.