Active Shooter Uvalde TX Elementary School

[JodyH]

I know for a fact that hesitancy to enter and engage happened during the El Paso, Texas Wal-Mart shooting.
I got a first hand account from one of the first men to go in about an argument at the front doors with an officer with a carbine not wanting to enter and not wanting to give his carbine to another officer who was entering.

Hesitancy was not a factor in the Alpine, Texas school shooting response. Again from a first hand account relayed to me, "blue on blue" was a serious concern because of the overwhelming immediate entry by multiple agencies. Alpine's strategic location near the border means there are a lot of local, state and fed LE there. There were some other issues in Alpine with clearing rooms and the evacuation of teachers/students, but none that delayed the initial entry.

I don't think there is a perfect response to active shooters, but in such a chaotic situation there never will be.
The best that can be done is improvise on the spot with the immediate termination of the threat being the only priority.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Someone above mentioned Heller as deciding the RKBA issue of private ownership vs. state organized militias. Heller is as much settled law as Roe. The Court is a political animal and a change in the votes would undo Heller. Now someone will mention that privacy isn't in the BOR but RKBA is. That makes no difference to a political and ideologically driven court. Heller was flawed anyway due to the compromises Scalia made for Kennedy and Scalia blabbing too much about the constraints on the RKBA (which supposedly he had to do, who knows?).

Discussing Heller is for a different day, though. The exact time line of actions at the school will have to come out for a more thorough look at what happened. Most of the left and right commentary is just folks trying to do their Andy Warhol for the next election and funding raising cycle. Beto and Cruz should be put on the Minnow with Gilligan and sent out to sea.

[JodyH]

After posting my previous reply re: El Paso Wal-Mart, Alpine school I started thinking about how department culture and individual officer mentality play into active shooter response.
I would think that larger city departments and officers who are used to having backup on every scene or just minutes away at all times have a different mentality when it comes to solo or 2 man entry as compared to a more rural area where officers often have no expectation of backup and often work alone or with very limited backup. Then you have small towns like Uvalde where "nothing ever happens".

Interested in others views, especially those who've been in/around the various cultures.
I've just been on the periphery and usually with the "warriors" from each culture via combatives training/competition.

[HCM]

I know for a fact that hesitancy to enter and engage happened during the El Paso, Texas Wal-Mart shooting.
I got a first hand account from one of the first men to go in about an argument at the front doors with an officer with a carbine not wanting to enter and not wanting to give his carbine to another officer who was entering.

Hesitancy was not a factor in the Alpine, Texas school shooting response. Again from a first hand account relayed to me, "blue on blue" was a serious concern because of the overwhelming immediate entry by multiple agencies. Alpine's strategic location near the border means there are a lot of local, state and fed LE there. There were some other issues in Alpine with clearing rooms and the evacuation of teachers/students, but none that delayed the initial entry.

I don't think there is a perfect response to active shooters, but in such a chaotic situation there never will be.
The best that can be done is improvise on the spot with the immediate termination of the threat being the only priority.

Technically blue on green in Alpine as a Deputy US Marshal ND'ed into the leg of a Border Patrol Agent during that event.

[11B10]

After posting my previous reply re: El Paso Wal-Mart, Alpine school I started thinking about how department culture and individual officer mentality play into active shooter response.
I would think that larger city departments and officers who are used to having backup on every scene or just minutes away at all times have a different mentality when it comes to solo or 2 man entry as compared to a more rural area where officers often have no expectation of backup and often work alone or with very limited backup. Then you have small towns like Uvalde where "nothing ever happens".

Interested in others views, especially those who've been in/around the various cultures.
I've just been on the periphery and usually with the "warriors" from each culture via combatives training/competition.

So very much this ^^^^^^. Because of the overwhelming emotion in these events where defenseless children are the victims, I'm struggling to keep my perspective and learn.



After posting, I saw this: https://www.foxnews.com/media/uvalde...e-floyd-murder

I'll give Obama credit where credit is due - he's consistent. He was clueless then and he is clueless now.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The analyses of not having a quicker entry are starting up. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/an...ool-in-uvalde/

As I said, a complete report will take time before conclusions can be drawn. Unless you have ESP and can teleport, a shooter who gets into a soft location will shoot 10s of victims before being stopped. I made that point to the TX legislature hearing on campus carry. Where I worked, a team would have to charge up 4 flights of stairs to a major densely packed classroom with limited access - this after they got the call and got to the building. Since we know shooting speeds, it was a death trap (like I said on the tube). Old me, could draw his 1911 and hit 6 shots on target in about 3.75 seconds.

The students were supposed to throw laptops and phones at the shooter. Remember having kids bringing cans of corn to class?

[11B10]

How brave was this guy? https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-sch...r-patrol-agent

[JodyH]

So very much this ^^^^^^. Because of the overwhelming emotion in these events where defenseless children are the victims, I'm struggling to keep my perspective and learn.

Some of the most decisive "immediate action" LE I've trained alongside/competed against were USBP agents, rural southwestern US highway patrol/state police and game wardens.
Then again some of the most aggressive unarmed combatives LE I've trained with were major metro urban beat cops.
Imagine that, it's almost like you adapt to your environment.

[HCM]

Onlookers urged police to charge into Texas school

https://apnews.com/article/uvalde-te...482483df6e4683

Upset that police were not moving in, he raised the idea of charging into the school with several other bystanders.

“Let’s just rush in because the cops aren’t doing anything like they are supposed to,” he said. “More could have been done.”

“They were unprepared,” he added.

As I understand, since Ferguson, “warrior training” and the attendant mindset has been taboo for police. Having officers wait outside for SWAT or something has been known to be a failing strategy since Columbine. Seems to me that this hesitancy to act decisively is yet another product of the current war on police.

I'd give it at least two weeks for the fog of war to clear before thinking we know what actually happened and the precise timing or reasons for anything.

@OlongJohnson is spot on here.

"unprepared" can mean a lot of things, including not what those saying it think it meant.

Like breaching capability. "Hardening" physical structures can be a two edged sword. My understanding (unconfirmed) is the adhoc BORTAC team that finally made entry had to use a master key provided by a school administrator to enter.

There's a big fucking difference between a bunch of frustrated cops who want nothing more than to get in that room and kill the suspect but can't because of lack of breaching capability and implied cowardice.

If you have a subject who has stopped "actively" shooting / killing and physically barricaded you have to weigh the cons of survivors not getting timely aid vs a potential failed breach triggering the suspect to start shooting survivors. When you breach it need to be in manner which allows you to enter and be ready to fight immediately as evidenced by the Bortac team immediately taking multiple rounds to their ballistic shield on entry.

[HCM]

After posting my previous reply re: El Paso Wal-Mart, Alpine school I started thinking about how department culture and individual officer mentality play into active shooter response.
I would think that larger city departments and officers who are used to having backup on every scene or just minutes away at all times have a different mentality when it comes to solo or 2 man entry as compared to a more rural area where officers often have no expectation of backup and often work alone or with very limited backup. Then you have small towns like Uvalde where "nothing ever happens".

Interested in others views, especially those who've been in/around the various cultures.
I've just been on the periphery and usually with the "warriors" from each culture via combatives training/competition.

It can also be a training issue.

Initial post-Columbine AS training was based on forming adhoc teams the first 3 or 4 officers available because singletons can be at a significant disadvantage. As we learned more about how critical timely response was that has shift to pairs or single officer response but not every officer or department has update their training.