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Thread: Running

  1. #1
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Running

    I'm forking this discussion off from a defensive-related thread. Let's discuss RUNNING: movement to minimize the time we spend not shooting. There are some interesting questions, and I hope @RJ doesn't mind me using his post to motivate the discussion.

    When do we reload? This depends on the length of the movement, and other factors like position relative to the safe angle.

    How do we learn to RUN* with a loaded gun? What are some good drills for learning to run as fast as possible, while also being safe?
    *like you're in a race or someone is kidnapping your kid

    What are some approaches to running while retreating? How do we approach the reload during these movements?

    Etc...

    GO!

    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Reloading on the move isn’t always the best approach in USPSA either. If you need to cover a lot of ground fast, it’s usually better to get the reload done and run, or run and finish the reload just before arrival.
    Quote Originally Posted by RJ View Post
    Good stuff in all of the above. As a basic .civ CCW'er, really appreciate this discussion.

    Huh. Hadn't thought of that. I'm pretty slow between arrays, so maybe this will be an option I can explore to shave some transition time. Not to devolve into USPSA, but running with a loaded gun is something I'm not good at.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  2. #2
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    “What are these ‘reloads’ of which you speak?”

    —Sincerely, PCC competitor.


  3. #3
    @Clusterfrack

    This is specifically in the context of competition?

  4. #4
    Running in a competition environment is extremely different as compared to when you have a gun in your hand and running in a high threat environment.

    Can you clarify a bit more what you are wanting to discuss?

  5. #5
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Running

    Quote Originally Posted by hiro View Post
    @Clusterfrack

    This is specifically in the context of competition?
    Good questions--thanks. I put this thread in Competition Skills & Discussion subforum, but hope we can talk about relevance to real-world applications.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  6. #6
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost River View Post
    Running in a competition environment is extremely different as compared to when you have a gun in your hand and running in a high threat environment.

    Can you clarify a bit more what you are wanting to discuss?
    Great point, and a good thing to start out this discussion with. I don’t have any agenda other than to plant the seed.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  7. #7
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Jan 2014
    Excellent, I was thinking this might be a good thread to start, glad @Clusterfrack got it underway. My question was related to a competition environment, not self-defense. My context is USPSA; specifically Carry Optics, in my case a Glock 34.5 with a 22 round mag.

    I'm talking, specifically, exiting from one shooting position to get to another shooting position. I'm generally reloading somewhere in this sequence, so that I arrive at the new shooting position with 22+1. On a typical USPSA stage, my planning includes "where am I going to reload?". Obviously not nearly as often as I used to, in Production, with 10 round mags, but certainly at least once per stage, sometimes twice.

    My personal circumstances (63, semi-fit, 5'6", 185#, old soccer injuries) and footwear / typical soil type (trail shoes with lugs, mostly grass, sand, dirt, some gravel in FL) dictate some of my lack of speed. I'm certain I could pick up some time in the transitions.

    However, comma, my questions, given the above, would include:

    - What is best practice for transitioning out of a shooting position? You've called your last Alpha on the last target, how do you get out of that position and get moving as fast as possible?

    - In between: Out the options of running full speed with a loaded pistol, what are the alternatives, and how do you pick the best one? Choices seem to include running one-handed or two handed; hands near low ready, or hands up high? Being mindful of the 180, and having a firm grip, of course.

    - As to reloading, options would be reload after the last Alpha and get going, or reloading on the move while walking/semi-running, or reloading on arrival (this last seems like a bad idea?)

    - What is the best way to arrive at a shooting position? I vaguely recall from my Feb Tim Herron class he emphasized bending your knees and "putting on the ABS" by going low as you arrived at a new position, gun up, sights tracking, but I may misremember that.


    ETA: I have zip to add to the thread, for running with a loaded gun in a self-defense environment. For me, the percentage of time I need to worry about moving from one active shooting position to another active shooting position, "for real" as a .civ CCW carrier, seems vanishingly small, hence my context of shaving time in USPSA, but I don't know what I don't know.

    But I certainly would be extremely happy to learn more about aspects of moving / reloading that would lead to more successful outcomes in that context, if I ever happen to be in that situation.
    Last edited by RJ; 05-22-2022 at 11:27 AM.

  8. #8
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    @RJ the answers to all those questions with full explanations, caveats and depth are on the Max Michel patreon training.

    It’s also why Anderson is just a very, very basic starting point.

    The answer to your questions are of course “it depends” and for the learning you seek, it’s there in a comprehensive format for less money than spent on a single class that didn’t teach you that.

    The general Max Michel philosophy is get the reload done within 1-2 steps of exit.

    Grauffel sometimes delays the completion of reload, but you can’t go wrong following Max.

  9. #9
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    Good question - if you separate out competition reloads vs. 'fighting' reloads - they are different paradigms.

    1. In competition, moving between shooting positions is a way to save time.

    2. Maintaining the 180 in the confines of the shooting layout is of prime importance

    3. Clusterfrack - you are wandering into, if you mention fighting - the horrible IDPA debate of tactical reloads. When would you release a mag with available ammunition? The tactical reload, reload with retention, shooting to slide lock to get a better reload (dumping - had that called on me) are all supposedly fighting issues.

    Thus reloading with known positions is different from 'fighting'.

    Running - again, that depends on your ability. Moving with alacrity is important in fighting when called for. Sometimes a cautious approach is better. Coming up to a corner, do you charge to it and in front of an opening? I said running speed should be such that you, in fighting, arrive at the shooting position (which may or may not have known vs unknown opponents) with an ability to deal with what that may be. You may or may not know where the targets are. There may be unknown opponents who shoot you - been there on that in FOF and 360 shoot house.

    In competition, you arrive such that you can engage the targets. You should not fall on face as I have seen happen as that scares the bystanders. You care little about cover - the great IDPA debate.

    So, competition running has some different components from SD movement. In either, skill in drawing the mag, inserting it, racking if necessary need to practiced.

    Good discussion.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    How do we learn to RUN* with a loaded gun? What are some good drills for learning to run as fast as possible, while also being safe?
    Yesterday I was jogging in the forest. When I jog, I have my cell phone with me and use a fitness app.

    I took the phone in my right hand and made my index finger long like I do when I run with my pistol on an IPSC stage. I assumed the finger was parallel to the barrel and was aware of where my finger was pointing to. This is how I simulated a pistol in my hand. Then: I accelerated as fast as I could for maybe 10 yards, braked hard, sometimes aimed with the phone and repeated (about 20 times). Heart rate went up pretty high (about 150 bpm).
    Last edited by P30; 05-22-2022 at 01:05 PM.

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