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Thread: Don't Say "I've Got a Gun!"

  1. #11
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    Texas
    Most unfortunate all the way around. Before I got a license to carry a handgun, I never declared the weapon if asked I were armed. Saying yes would been a ticket to jail depending on the officer. After getting the license, I always present it first. Usually there's no comment. In the above video, I think the cop over reacted. However, I don't think he should pay a penalty. Like I said, it was most unfortunate. Texas has a gun culture. The other state does not. Here having a gun in your vehicle is somewhat accepted.

  2. #12
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    Arizona

  3. #13
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yung View Post
    I don’t know why it is but people reach for weapons when you ask about them. I evolved my question about weapons to the point of first saying “Without out reaching for it do you have any weapons on you or in the car?” Just like the video even when you specifically tell people not to move they invariably reach for it. The driver reaches for the gun even after being warned to keep his hands on the steering wheel. The only thing that saved him I think was he stopped moving when told and he didn’t try to draw it.

    I have been in a similar situation to the Castile shooting. I was probably milliseconds from shooting a domestic violence suspect/driver reaching for a gun on the floorboard. I had the spot picked I where I was going to shoot him. I was on my toes to shoot down to avoid the passenger. The only thing that saved him was he was moving slowly and he complied at the last second. He wanted to beef me. The former SWAT LT onscene just looked at him and said you’re lucky it was this SWAT Officer that stopped you and he gave you a chance. Otherwise you’d have been shot.
    The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.* Thucydides 471BC

    "Hey! Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

  4. #14
    keep it light...but real blues's Avatar
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    Not really related to this but it was a funny coincidence given the conversation this morning.


    I'm in the supermarket with Mrs. Blues this afternoon and this big guy is lingering in the aisle where we were looking for something and then when we were finished I told him that I hoped we hadn't held him up.

    He looks at me and asks my last name. Kind of an odd question. So I ask him his last name and he told me. My mind is racing to figure out why he's asking...and then it hits me...he recognizes me from the annual LEOSA qualifications I perform with the sheriff's office. He's running for sheriff as the current sheriff is retiring...and he's one of the lieutenants at the department.

    He didn't ask me if I was carrying and I didn't volunteer anything.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    Not really related to this but it was a funny coincidence given the conversation this morning.


    I'm in the supermarket with Mrs. Blues this afternoon and this big guy is lingering in the aisle where we were looking for something and then when we were finished I told him that I hoped we hadn't held him up.

    He looks at me and asks my last name. Kind of an odd question. So I ask him his last name and he told me. My mind is racing to figure out why he's asking...and then it hits me...he recognizes me from the annual LEOSA qualifications I perform with the sheriff's office. He's running for sheriff as the current sheriff is retiring...and he's one of the lieutenants at the department.

    He didn't ask me if I was carrying and I didn't volunteer anything.




    Wait...what? YOU didn't volunteer anything? Who is this really - impersonating blues - and what did you do with him?
    "We are the domestic pets of a human zoo we call civilization."

    Laurence Gonzales - "Deep Survival."

  6. #16
    keep it light...but real blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11B10 View Post
    Wait...what? YOU didn't volunteer anything? Who is this really - impersonating blues - and what did you do with him?

    I have a feeling he made me.
    There's nothing civil about this war.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyotesfan97 View Post
    I don’t know why it is but people reach for weapons when you ask about them.
    And as any of us that have worked Patrol longer than 6 months making traffic stops has learned...when you ask the driver "Do you have any illegal weapons/drugs/etc. in the vehicle that I need to know about?", at least 50% of the time they either look at (glovebox, etc.) or put their hand over the area (console, pocket, etc.) they have the contraband stashed, while saying "No, officer...".

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Coyotesfan97 View Post
    I have been in a similar situation to the Castile shooting. I was probably milliseconds from shooting a domestic violence suspect/driver reaching for a gun on the floorboard. I had the spot picked I where I was going to shoot him. I was on my toes to shoot down to avoid the passenger. The only thing that saved him was he was moving slowly and he complied at the last second. He wanted to beef me. The former SWAT LT on scene just looked at him and said you’re lucky it was this SWAT Officer that stopped you and he gave you a chance. Otherwise you’d have been shot.
    I get very well what you are saying and Bravo Zulu.

    To bad that our expectation is that SWAT officers understand the concept of preclusion but regular officers don't/can't.

    I know I'm painting with a broad brush, and my feelings certainly don't encompass all agencies, but I feel there is enough faulty training out there that I'll jump in:

    1) I think too many times force-on-force is conducted like cowboys and indians. By that I mean the folks running it haven't, as HVM alluded to a couple posts ago, written a lesson plan/script that clearly lists the objectives to be evaluated. Likewise, role players are often not held to sticking to the script, or reined in when they go off the rails. If these elements aren't adhered to, it is too easy to get officers in the mindset that every person is trying to trick fvck them like the bad guys during sims training. I've said this before in other threads, but it bears repeating.

    2) Use-of-Force Training is too often entrusted to folks that believe they are SME's and aren't. Officers are often led astray by officers in a perceived position of authority who are performing for the crowd.

    As an example, on another forum there was a thread involving less-lethal munitions. The thread had included discussions on LL in conjunction with suicidal folks with guns and the need for lethal cover, etc. One guy, who happened to be a Trooper in a neighboring state, stated that their policy was to tell the person to drop the weapon and if the person didn't immediately comply they were supposed to use lethal force. This piqued my interest and I sked if this was a written policy. The reply was 'that was what the instructor put out at our last qual.' When I asked if the Trooper had run that by the legal folks to see if it passed the smell test, crickets. Would that instructor have come forward and said 'yes, that is what I told those Troopers' during a hearing?

    Use-of-force taught by such blanket rules generally leaves out important context which should be considered in the use-of-force decision.
    Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyotesfan97 View Post
    I don’t know why it is but people reach for weapons when you ask about them. I evolved my question about weapons to the point of first saying “Without out reaching for it do you have any weapons on you or in the car?” Just like the video even when you specifically tell people not to move they invariably reach for it. The driver reaches for the gun even after being warned to keep his hands on the steering wheel. The only thing that saved him I think was he stopped moving when told and he didn’t try to draw it.

    I have been in a similar situation to the Castile shooting. I was probably milliseconds from shooting a domestic violence suspect/driver reaching for a gun on the floorboard. I had the spot picked I where I was going to shoot him. I was on my toes to shoot down to avoid the passenger. The only thing that saved him was he was moving slowly and he complied at the last second. He wanted to beef me. The former SWAT LT onscene just looked at him and said you’re lucky it was this SWAT Officer that stopped you and he gave you a chance. Otherwise you’d have been shot.
    Been there. "You don't touch yours, and I won't touch mine" was the instruction. Worked.

    My old agency did sims runs with different challenges, something I still teach my rookies over a decade later....

    "Police! Don't move!"

    Identify yourself, then give a command that evaluates compliance. Then do the whole "hands up..." walk back to the sound of my voice...." it can meet the statutory requirements of "knowingly" for those that resist.

    Lets face it. "Police! Stop! Don't move!" Might be moar clear than "drop it"...and "stop"... When you tell someone with a with a potential weapon in their hand to "drop it" there is some ambiguity...Drop what? Which hand? What about telling an obviously armed persom to raise thier hands? Been there done that. The hands come up, armed, and may give you AOJ. Where do you have to take ownership of telling an armed person to take their hands out of their pockets? They pulled their hand(s) out, and have a gun...good shoot? They complied with your commands, did what they were told...Maybe a good shoot, maybe not. And if not, you own it...

    pat
    Last edited by UNM1136; 05-15-2022 at 11:43 AM.

  10. #20
    Member Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    Oct 2016
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    Central Texas
    There are multiple, more civilized states, where no license is required. What then?

    Even though we don't need a CHL any more, I still have one and would have it in my hand, even though it shows up on the data terminal.

    I haven't been pulled over in three decades though.

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