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Thread: The Handgun Carousel Ride, Intervention Needed!

  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Before I go in the weeds on the LEM, one of the first things steps to becoming proficient with the Dea/Sa trigger is to stop thinking of having two different trigger pulls. Since both break in the same spot you will get much better results thinking of them as all the same based on where the trigger breaks.

    That leads to stupidity like people talking about firing the first shot off into the ground to get to the “good “trigger pull.”

    When you shot the LEM were you just plinking with no time pressure? At what distance ?

    I could shoot a great slow fire group with an LEM trigger but the practical application for pistols always has time as a factor.

    If all you were going to do was slow fire from a static position on the range it would be fine. However, when time pressure is applied the LEM doesn’t do well. Not just with shot to shot splits but with time to first shot.

    The LEM was based on research which indicated that the length of a trigger pole was more significant than the weight in reference to unintended discharges. The problem with that is These are situations where either the shooter never should’ve had their finger on the trigger in the first place or an involuntary response such as sympathetic grip. An example of that would be someone with a pistol in one hand who slips and falls and then tries to grab a handrail to break their fall with the other hand. The reflexive grip with one hand causes the other hand to also grip due to an involuntary sympathetic response. When that happens they are generating 50 to 60 pounds of force or more, so the length and the weight of the trigger pull is not going to prevent anything.

    The LEM has a long but light take up followed by a wall with a heavier trigger pull. Many people try to take up the slack and then shoot from the wall also known as staging which essentially encourages you to anticipate / smash the trigger under time pressure. To shoot the LEM reasonably well you need to pull continuously through the trigger pole like a revolver. In fact shooting a double action revolver was the only other form of shooting that seem to assist with becoming proficient with the LEM.

    If you’re issued an LEM, and it is your only choice can you make it work? Yes but is it optimal? No.

    Going back to running DA/SA trigger I strongly recommend watching Ernest Langdons 3 YouTube videos titled “fear not the double action shot.”


    The DA pull is not a problem for me when shooting my TDA pistols. Even after not shooting for a while, the first shot/DA pull is no problem, it is the second shot in SA that I will hit a bit low with. The first shot in DA is easy. Thanks for sharing the vids I will view them. So I take it you prefer TDA over LEM? Have you ever experienced what I described above with the DA to SA transition?

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by HammerStriker View Post
    The DA pull is not a problem for me when shooting my TDA pistols. Even after not shooting for a while, the first shot/DA pull is no problem, it is the second shot in SA that I will hit a bit low with. The first shot in DA is easy.
    Don’t get wrapped up in the title.

    Whether it’s the first shot or the second the issue (and solution) are the same.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by HammerStriker View Post

    What was it about the LEM trigger that made it difficult to shoot compared to other triggers?
    1. Long light pretravel followed up by a wall is a setup for anticipation. Very easy to go fast though pretravel and then continue with the same speed through the wall, trying to drive through it like driving over a speed bump. The end-result is the same, a rough ride.
    Opposite to that, some people stage it and it is anticipation inducing. It is a hybrid trigger and needs to be learned in its specific way. The best results I got from it when I shot it as if it was a striker trigger but with a long takeup.
    2. Trigger doesn't stop after reset point until it goes all the way out. You have to actively control your pretravel and if you mess up a little, you get pretravel variability from shot to shot. Suboptimal.

    Note that none of that matters for slow group shooting, it starts playing out when you crank up your speed.
    Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    1. Long light pretravel followed up by a wall is a setup for anticipation. Very easy to go fast though pretravel and then continue with the same speed through the wall, trying to drive through it like driving over a speed bump. The end-result is the same, a rough ride.
    2. Trigger doesn't stop after reset point until it goes all the way out. You have to actively control your pretravel and if you mess up a little, you get pretravel variability from shot to shot. Suboptimal.

    Note that none of that matters for slow group shooting, it starts playing out when you crank up your speed.
    Got it. Obviously, SA and SFA are easiest to shoot fast. Would you say that it is easier to shoot fast (accurately) with a TDA than with LEM? And I mean shooting the first shot from DA/de-cocked, not cocking the hammer back.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by HammerStriker View Post
    Got it. Obviously, SA and SFA are easiest to shoot fast. Would you say that it is easier to shoot fast (accurately) with a TDA than with LEM? And I mean shooting the first shot from DA/de-cocked, not cocking the hammer back.
    For me, yes. Again, that implies that TDA is not sucky like on USP or HK45 and trigger reach to DA position is OK. I maybe slightly slower on a DA shot depending on DA's weight, but it is minimal. Peak to peak difference is actually none, but on average DA is hair slower for me, especially with carry-weight trigger. All following shots are more consistent and faster with SA.

    I'd say that for carry purposes it wouldn't matter for me but if I needed to shoot a match or some sort of performance drill, I'd take a TDA. HK Shooting team of pre VP-9 days, member of which used to post here, went with DA/SA P30 over LEM, if that means anything.
    Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by HammerStriker View Post
    Got it. Obviously, SA and SFA are easiest to shoot fast. Would you say that it is easier to shoot fast (accurately) with a TDA than with LEM? And I mean shooting the first shot from DA/de-cocked, not cocking the hammer back.
    Yes. It is absolutely faster and easier to shoot effectively with a DA/SA a gun than LEM.

    Coming back the hammer on a DAS a gun is about as unrealistic as firing the first shot into the dirt.

    Like anything running DA/SA gun well is technique driven.

    One of the more common techniques from both the holster and the ready is the press-out. If you have made a decision to shoot once you have both hands on the gun you can start working the trigger as you present, ideally breaking the sht as soon as you you reach your desired point of extension.

    Watch the three videos from Ernest Langdon. They will communicate it better than all the posting back-and-forth here.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrology View Post
    I would do the financial calculus of whichever one you have the most stuff for + would cost you the least to switch over to barring some total anatomic incompatibility with a particular make of firearm
    A year ago I won a 365 in a charity auction, I sold it after I added up that it was going to cost me almost $300 just to keep it (swap to XL frame, convert mags, buy holster). I already had a Shield and was in the process of saving to get something else I wanted, and if I wanted a 365 I really wanted the XL anyway.

  8. #108
    To get off the carousel you have to understand two things.

    1) You can shoot anything well if you use it long enough to get proficient. And it doesn’t take that long.

    2) No matter how goofy/difficult/complicated you make a pistol, it just gets more and more unsafe.

    Welcome back to Glock.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by M2CattleCo View Post
    To get off the carousel you have to understand two things.

    1) You can shoot anything well if you use it long enough to get proficient. And it doesn’t take that long.

    2) No matter how goofy/difficult/complicated you make a pistol, it just gets more and more unsafe.

    Welcome back to Glock.
    This is true

  10. #110
    It's easy to get caught up in the LEM mystique on PF. Personally, I'm a huge fan of them for myself as they work well for my preferences. It's an intensely individual choice. For myself, I find a correlation to the type of clutch and shifter feel I prefer in a car. I like the longer travel and more tactile feel. Especially with a heavier trigger return spring. This works really well for me when manipulating the trigger on the press out. Kind of like modulating a clutch and throttle under various conditions.

    That said, there are also plenty of reports here from highly experienced shooters that the LEM is a boon to maintain skill with. In many cases seemingly needing an almost exclusive platform focus to maintain proficiency. With a laundry list of skills that must be maintained or tasks performed, it ultimately becomes a question of ROI.

    I think there is more than enough evidence on PF to suggest that a pessimistic outlook on the LEM trigger is probably warranted for most shooters. Some weirdo outliers (like myself) take to the LEM naturally and don't find it too difficult to maintain an acceptable level of performance with. Seemingly most people do not and it tends to take more effort to gain proficiency, performance, and maintain it. Don't assume that you're an outlier.

    If an HK hammer gun is what it has to be, they certainly have a lot going for them, at least as far as iron sight guns go. Robust and reliable. Bomb-proof mags. Reliable 10rd mags. Paddle mag release (also an individual love it or hate it preference). Many trigger options. If you have to go this route, give serious consideration to going DA/SA to start with. You can always convert to LEM later.

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