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Thread: Class review HKPRO MP5/SP5 Operator Dallas

  1. #1

    Class review HKPRO MP5/SP5 Operator Dallas

    Here is my writeup on the Dallas class that took place last weekend on April 23-24.

    The class was taught by HKPRO, owner of the HKpro.com and the https://www.hkpro.com/forums/. I am not posting his name for reasons of privacy. He has enjoyed a 30ish long year career in Law Enforcement, during which he held positions in Patrol, Detectives, SWAT, administration, command, and training. He was an instructor for H&K's training division when they had one.

    The course was equally geared for people with select fire MP-5s as well as those with semi-auto versions. For some drills the instructor and owners of full auto MP-5s were generous enough to let the semi-auto owners use their select fire MP-5s to participate in drills that required a full auto gun. Thus everyone in the class got to run drills that required full auto weapons.

    --Class started on Saturday morning in a meeting room in a hotel with a lecture and slides and videos on the history of rollerlock and MP5 and quick fim clips with translations about current day H&K and the unfavorable political environment that it operates in explains why we have problems getting the things that we do. We also got to see some info on the HK416. We ended the classroom part with a safety lecture before we adjourned to the ETTS range in Waxahachie, TX. Once we got to the range we had our own private bermed bay.

    --I spoke to HKPRO before class and arrived early HKpro switched out my extractor spring. I had a new SP5K that I had bought new and SBR'ed a few years ago that started to have failures to extract after it had about 400-500 rounds through it. In this case the ejected case would not fully eject and get in the way of feeding the new round. I don't know if they would be classified as a stovepipe, since the extracted case did not make it out far enough to stovepipe. After the new extractor spring was installed I did encounter one of these failures to extract on the first day with Winchester NATO 123 grain ammo, and I encountered the same malfunction the second day when I was running some Federal 124 grain HST Hollowpoints through the gun. It worked out to about 1 malfunction every 400-500 rounds.

    --Once we got to the range at ETTS in Waxahachie (http://www.ettsgunrange.com/ ), we divided the class into two shooting relays. HKPRO was assisted by several range safety officers. HKPRO went over the basics of loading, aiming, and shooting the MP5/SP5 to make sure that everyone was on the same page. The range session started with paper targets from offhand to make sure everyone was sighted in.

    --The class had about 20 students in it, and was broken down to two relays of 10 students for most of the shooting. This allowed those not shooting to reload, hydrate, and do other necessary tasks, as well as meet fellow students.

    --We did some full auto shooting. Full auto guns were shared for range use by HKpro and class members with those of us who did not have them for certain drills. Of course the people shooting the guns provided the ammo.

    --We transitioned to steel targets which were better in terms of immediately telling if you hit target or didn't, and did not require switching like paper targets.

    --I like HKpro's advice on using a mag clamp for two 30 round mags because it provided what I needed for the drills, including reloads and malfunction clearances. Running the class with drills requiring two mags of ammo per relay and then switching relays gave us the information that we needed and the reps we needed but kept the class moving fast. The mag clamp was adequate for everything we did in the class.

    --HKPRO corrected me of a habit of downloading my mags to 28 rounds to make them easier to insert with the bolt closed. With an HK MP5 and clones, you always lock the bolt back before seating a magazine because they are much, much quicker and easier to seat.

    --We also got to fire a dealer sample H&K M320 Grenade launcher firing chalk marking rounds, and an K&K MP7. This was quite a treat.

    --The first day on the range we covered basic shooting of the gun, loading, malfunction clearance, transitioning to a handgun when your shoulder arm runs dry, and a bunch of things that I don't remember well enough to list, even though I did absorb the information.

    --The second day we did a refresher and did turning and shooting, shooting on the move, movement and then stopping to turn and shoot. We also shot different standard tests like raising the gun and firing and getting multiple hits on an individual and multipe targets, clearing malfunctions, magazine changes, and transitioning to pistols when the shoulder arm was out of ammo or malfunctioned (simulated malfunction).l

    --We ended the second day with a scrambler drill. For this HKPRO sprayed a number on each of the metal upper body targets, set up plastic rain barrels as barricades, and had us run it individually. There were 3-4 firing positions set up, one seated, on standing and one kneeling. We ran it individually moving from position to position, firing at the targets that HKPRO specified.

    --Everyone enjoyed themselves. The class was very cohesive and friendly, with many HKpro forum members in attendance.

  2. #2
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    --I like HKpro's advice on using a mag clamp for two 30 round mags because it provided what I needed for the drills, including reloads and malfunction clearances. Running the class with drills requiring two mags of ammo per relay and then switching relays gave us the information that we needed and the reps we needed but kept the class moving fast. The mag clamp was adequate for everything we did in the class.

    --HKPRO corrected me of a habit of downloading my mags to 28 rounds to make them easier to insert with the bolt closed. With an HK MP5 and clones, you always lock the bolt back before seating a magazine because they are much, much quicker and easier to seat
    A mag clamp for an MP5 is a great addition to your kit. Iíve done it both ways. You can get some really fast reload speeds with a mag clamp. You probably heard this a lot. Back Off On Forward repeat numerous times as you reload.

    How many rounds was HKPRO having you put in the mags? I was trained initially as a new SWAT guy by a HK Master Instructor. I attended training taught by Phil Singleton who developed HKIs MP5 training. As a side note he did some amazing things with MP5s when he taught us. I went through HKIs Operator and Instructor classes. I was always taught and taught 28 rounds in a mag. However Iíve run 30 rounds in a mag during training but duty mags were always loaded 28.

    Im just curious because I canít remember the rational other than itís impossible to load a mag with 31 rounds into a MP5 with a closed bolt. Iíve seen it tried by some pretty strong guys who couldnít do it. At the time I never questioned it. Did he expand on his reasoning to you?

    It sounds like it was a great class. MP5s are right at the top of my list as my favorite guns.
    The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.* Thucydides 471BC

    "Hey! Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

  3. #3
    Ed L:

    Thanks for the after-action report ("AAR"). It's nice to see that the MP5 system is still getting some attention. I think the MP5 still has a place in domestic law enforcement. I am a firm believer in the AR type patrol rifle, but there are times/places/missions where the MP5 shines (and the shotgun as well for that matter). One of those areas involves shooting inside structures. The MP5 is noticeably kinder, especially if you are not wearing ear protection. As cool as tiny ARs are, nothing really compares to a collapsing stock MP5. People tend to try to make MP5s into battle/patrol rifles and in that realm the MP5 fails but that was/is not the mission of the MP5. The MP5/10 is probably the pinnacle of submachinegun development, especially in terms of power.

    Coyotesfan97:

    I was always taught to fill my magazines with no more than 28 rounds and insure that you could depress the top cartridge approximately one half an inch.

    Bruce
    Bruce Cartwright
    Owner & chief instructor-SAC Tactical
    E-mail: "info@saconsco.com"
    Website: "https://saconsco.com"

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Coyotesfan97 View Post
    How many rounds was HKPRO having you put in the mags? I was trained initially as a new SWAT guy by a HK Master Instructor. I attended training taught by Phil Singleton who developed HKIs MP5 training. As a side note he did some amazing things with MP5s when he taught us. I went through HKIs Operator and Instructor classes. I was always taught and taught 28 rounds in a mag. However Iíve run 30 rounds in a mag during training but duty mags were always loaded 28.
    HKPRO had us loading 30 rounds in a magazine. Early in the class I handed him a magazine and he noticed that I had downloaded it. My magazine loading habits come from Pat Rogers, where I was taught to download an AR mag to 28 rounds to ensure seating if the bolt is closed. With the design of the HK MP5 family, it can be difficult to seat a mag with the bolt forward even if the mag is downloaded to 28 rounds. So it makes sense to lock the bolt back before trying to load a magazine. That is the way I was running the class.

    Then I came across this video of Firearms instructor James Williams of Teufelshund Tactical, Former Marine Recon who specializes in HKs, which goes into why you should lock the bolt back of an HK roller-lock before loading a magazine into the gun. He goes into other issues like wear and tear on the bolt and magazines if you load the gun with the bolt forward.


  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Cartwright View Post
    Ed L:

    Thanks for the after-action report ("AAR"). It's nice to see that the MP5 system is still getting some attention. I think the MP5 still has a place in domestic law enforcement. I am a firm believer in the AR type patrol rifle, but there are times/places/missions where the MP5 shines (and the shotgun as well for that matter). One of those areas involves shooting inside structures. The MP5 is noticeably kinder, especially if you are not wearing ear protection. As cool as tiny ARs are, nothing really compares to a collapsing stock MP5. People tend to try to make MP5s into battle/patrol rifles and in that realm the MP5 fails but that was/is not the mission of the MP5. The MP5/10 is probably the pinnacle of submachinegun development, especially in terms of power.

    Coyotesfan97:

    I was always taught to fill my magazines with no more than 28 rounds and insure that you could depress the top cartridge approximately one half an inch.
    The MP five is definitely less blasty than an AR-- especially a short-barreled Ar. And when you add a suppressor to the short-barreled AR to deal with the blast you have increased length.

    I ran my SBR'ed HK SP5K for the class. I ran every drill with the gun from a low ready with the gun on safety, and I disengage the safety as I brought it up on target. I always have ran the HK family rollerblocks this way. I have to angle the gun in my hand to be able to keep my finger on the safety . I found it impossible to switch selector from safe to full auto in this manner with the full auto select fire guns that I got to fire.

    I have an Aimpoint H-1 with a 4 MOA dot on my SP5K This optic makes it super easy to get good hits quickly with the gun.

    Here is a picture of my two HK SBRs that I dug up from a few years ago. The other gun is in HK 94 that I SBR's in 2017 or 2018. This was before HK made the SP5 pistol that could have been bought and turned into an SBR for less money.

    Name:  Vertical HK SP5K - Copy.jpg
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Ed L View Post
    The MP five is definitely less blasty than an AR-- especially a short-barreled Ar. And when you add a suppressor to the short-barreled AR to deal with the blast you have increased length.

    I ran my SBR'ed HK SP5K for the class. I ran every drill with the gun from a low ready with the gun on safety, and I disengage the safety as I brought it up on target. I always have ran the HK family rollerblocks this way. I have to angle the gun in my hand to be able to keep my finger on the safety . I found it impossible to switch selector from safe to full auto in this manner with the full auto select fire guns that I got to fire.

    I have an Aimpoint H-1 with a 4 MOA dot on my SP5K This optic makes it super easy to get good hits quickly with the gun.

    Here is a picture of my two HK SBRs that I dug up from a few years ago. The other gun is in HK 94 that I SBR's in 2017 or 2018. This was before HK made the SP5 pistol that could have been bought and turned into an SBR for less money.

    Name:  Vertical HK SP5K - Copy.jpg
Views: 170
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    ED L:

    Those MP5s are gorgeous. Nice job on the conversion work.

    As to down loading AR mags to 28, I heard the wee Irishman's voice as I read your post. I miss him immensely. I know Pat played with and used the MP5 and I wish I had had a chance to talk to him about them.

    In terms of the factory safety selector lever being too short, I ran across two solutions. Some of our folks had extensions welded onto the original safety selectors and I believe someone, possibly H&K offered/s those as an accessory. The other solution came from Ken Hackathorn. At one point I was blessed to receive some training on he MP5 from Ken and he related that many folks had difficulty disengaging the safety selector. His solution was to allow the extended butt stock to lightly ride on the outside of the shooter's right arm/shoulder which shifted the shooter's right wrist around enough to allow easy disengagement of the safety selector. As the shooter disengages the safety, he/she would shift the buttstock into the shoulder pocket as he raised the MP5 into shooting position. Ken also taught me to leave the collapsing buttstock extended an inch of so (from the closed position) which allowed me to flick it to the fully opened position easily. This would be done if I had to operate in extremely confined spaces. The default was to always leave the collapsing stock fully opened.

    One of the other many things Ken taught me was the following mantra: "Action parts back, magazine out, magazine in, action parts forward" for the reloading procedure. It was a very simple, easily mastered technique and a credit to his teaching ability.

    Bruce
    Bruce Cartwright
    Owner & chief instructor-SAC Tactical
    E-mail: "info@saconsco.com"
    Website: "https://saconsco.com"

  7. #7
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    In the days before red dots Iíd use my support hand to operate the safety. Iíd put my palm on the top of the receiver and flip the safety with my support thumb. I canít remember if that was from the operator or instructor school.

    I always liked back, off, on, forward. It was a great mantra for dual mags. Working parts BACK Magazine OFF Magazine ON, Working parts FORWARD. If you were running single mags add NEW between off and on.
    The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.* Thucydides 471BC

    "Hey! Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Cartwright View Post
    ED L:

    Those MP5s are gorgeous. Nice job on the conversion work.
    Thanks, Bruce, The HK94 SBR conversion was done by Curtis Higgins of S&H Arms https://sandharms.com/. He is well regarded in that field.

    As to down loading AR mags to 28, I heard the wee Irishman's voice as I read your post. I miss him immensely. I know Pat played with and used the MP5 and I wish I had had a chance to talk to him about them.
    I'm always had a feeling that if I loaded more than 28 rounds into an AR mag within 100 yards of Pat, he would have known it. I miss Pat a great deal. I think I took about 5-6 classes from him, including a handgun class that I wrote about for SWAT magazine. Here is a link to that article: https://www.swatmag.com/article/tomb...l-two-handgun/

    In terms of the factory safety selector lever being too short, I ran across two solutions. Some of our folks had extensions welded onto the original safety selectors and I believe someone, possibly H&K offered/s those as an accessory. The other solution came from Ken Hackathorn. At one point I was blessed to receive some training on he MP5 from Ken and he related that many folks had difficulty disengaging the safety selector. His solution was to allow the extended butt stock to lightly ride on the outside of the shooter's right arm/shoulder which shifted the shooter's right wrist around enough to allow easy disengagement of the safety selector. As the shooter disengages the safety, he/she would shift the buttstock into the shoulder pocket as he raised the MP5 into shooting position. Ken also taught me to leave the collapsing buttstock extended an inch of so (from the closed position) which allowed me to flick it to the fully opened position easily. This would be done if I had to operate in extremely confined spaces. The default was to always leave the collapsing stock fully opened.
    That is exactly what Ken told me as far as running the HK safety. You did an excellent job describing it. It is not as easy as an AR, but definitely manageable. I left the safety as it came with both guns. On the SP5K I switched the lower to that of an SP89 since I like that grip better and find it more comfortable. It matches the grip of my SBR'ed HK94. At the bottom of this post is a current picture of the SP5K the way I currently have it set up, and of my hand on the grip of the gun. The only time I had an issue was with other people's select fire HKs when I tried to go directly from safe to full auto.

    One of the other many things Ken taught me was the following mantra: "Action parts back, magazine out, magazine in, action parts forward" for the reloading procedure. It was a very simple, easily mastered technique and a credit to his teaching ability.
    Makes complete sense. If someone works with a MP5/SP5, this becomes self evident. When I first got the HK94 I tried downloading the mag to 28 rounds and seating it that way. At some point it became clear that it is much more trouble free and reliable to lock the bolt back before inserting the magazine rather than possibly having to ram the mag in a few times before it locks in.

    Here is a picture of my SBR'ed SP5K as it is now. It is a short and handy little package, and the Aimpoint with the 4 MOA dot it is superfast to get on target.

    Name:  SP5K - Copy.jpg
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    And my hand on the grip and thumb touching the safety.

    Name:  Hand on Gun - Copy.jpg
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  9. #9
    [QUOTE=Ed L;1353021] I think I took about 5-6 classes from him, including a handgun class that I wrote about for SWAT magazine. Here is a link to that article: https://www.swatmag.com/article/tomb...l-two-handgun/

    ED L:
    Thanks for passing along the link for your article about Pat's handgun class. The opening line is memorable to me. During one of Pat's carbine classes in Harrisonburg Virgina I failed to properly seat a magazine in my Colt M4. As expected the magazine launched itself from my carbine as I began to fire. The next thing I heard was: "I must be a bad instructor for here it is 11:22 hours on Training Day 1 and I have failed to show the FBI guy how to load a carbine." I received my Moosecock patch shortly thereafter. That's when I realized that Pat really gave a damn about his students. And of course, I have never again failed to properly seat a magazine in my friggin' carbine. Ever.


    So here are a couple more questions: How do you set up a white light for your MP5s? Do you find the full size MP5 easier to run than the K or vice versa?

    Thanks for your input.

    Bruce
    Bruce Cartwright
    Owner & chief instructor-SAC Tactical
    E-mail: "info@saconsco.com"
    Website: "https://saconsco.com"

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Cartwright View Post
    So here are a couple more questions: How do you set up a white light for your MP5s? Do you find the full size MP5 easier to run than the K or vice versa?
    That is a very good question. The stock that I have on the SP5K is more comfortable than the collapsible stock on the SBR'ed HK94, and of course the Aimpoint makes it quicker and much easier to shoot accurately. The SP5k's rear sight is

    The SBR'ed HK94 has the forend light. I am keeping it like an old school MP5 ith open sights for now. If it was my go to home defense gun I would probably set it up with an Aimpoint Micro.

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