Fishing for the dot on a less than perfect presentation vs finding the front sight during the pressout and having it near enough the notch to fire at the end of presentation would be my guess as to what most people are talking about.Originally Posted by Utm
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
Just a couple general observations on using the dot in less than normal conditions. In some instances the shooter is going to have to look at the gun to get it where he wants it to be. If irons can help get the gun aligned to the target then that's probably a good thing.
Some shooters note that finding the dot feels way slower in a low light environment where they cannot obtain the visual cues to steer the pistol into the line of sight. This can be somewhat magnified when the shooter is holding a flashlight in the non-firing hand. In essence both hands are kind of going their own thing here with one hand working to align the light while the other hand is working to align the dot.
The same can be seen when putting shooters into unconventional positions such as right or left side fetal. Shooters who are accustomed to finding the dot in a vertical plain only may struggle a bit when they have to make micro adjustments horizontally as well.
Both of these can be compensated for by first getting a rough alignment of the pistol by referencing the irons and using them as training wheels of a sort. In time the shooter should be able to develop a feel for the orientation of the pistol and be able to steer the dot into the line of sight without too much trouble. Of course this assumes that the shooter is working on making the visual handoff from the gun to the target and not just defaulting to using the irons and ignoring the dot. This also assumes the shooter has tritium sights and/or is using a flashlight technique that allows the irons to be more easily seen.
And then with regard to no dot and no irons as may be the case with an optic that is full of mud/snow/dirt; some places teach to use the optic body as a crude aiming point. This will generally mean that the shooter has to focus on the pistol and not the target. Same is true for using the sides of the slide or the Cirillo Index.
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I have messed with dots on a handgun for a decade. I was an earlier adopter and then went away from them for a while and came back. I feel that I still fish for the dot unless I am essentially doing daily dry fire. If I take a week off I lose the index. Perhaps I just don't have the commitment required. Fact is that at the 3-5 yard distance in a panic situation you don't really need them to make A zone hits (head box, perhaps) so I am probably over aiming.
I would describe it as trying to bring the dot to a stop, rather than letting the shot fire when the red dot is somewhere within the acceptable target zone. With irons sights on close targets, people aren’t stopping the gun and getting the perfect sight alignment they would use at, for example a B8 at 25 yards, but with a dot they may be stopping the dot like you would at 25, rather than shooting the streak.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
As @HCM said, I found the transition to a dot to be WAY more work than moving from one pistol action to another. Did the Sig Academy PMO Instructor Course, and have been shooting 150-300 rounds a week on a dot. I am just reaching the point where I am as fast up close with the dot as I am with irons...but some of that is frankly predictive shooting. Still can't track the dot at speed like I can irons. And one handed shooting up close is still faster with irons. Beyond 10 yards? Dot rules again.
My focus on the dot is due to trying to improve performance while dealing with 55 year old eyes, and not wanting to use 'cheater' style shooting glasses. Plus I just wanted to see where it could go.
On the subject of switching back and forth....sometimes I'm just stupid I guess. Spent a morning shooting about 175 rounds doing really aggressive drills finding the dot fast and accepting the wobble. Started feeling good. Then after lunch I got pushed to demo a movement drill that I wanted the recruits to shoot. Hadn't shot it beforehand....and was back to shooting a 226 with irons. Gun came up to my face and as soon as that bright red front was on the B/C steel I pulled the trigger. And sent the shot right over the targets shoulder. I floated that front sight like it was a dot at 15 yards with nary a though to the rear sight. Horse on me. Instantly realized what I had done and finished the drill with proper focus on my sights for the shots. Embarrassing, and also a learning experience.
Some people have a very deliberate (and slow) press-out presentation that I don't see as much with irons. With irons, seeing the front-rear relationship as it extends helps get the sights aligned. With a dot, that's not as natural (although it can be learned). If the person doesn't have a well-developed index that automatically puts the dot in the window, they try to "guide it in".
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
I don’t believe “ shot calling / low prob shooting / on the move - moving / visual focal shifts” will ever be as good with irons as with a dot, no matter how much effort you put into it.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
This is where a dot makes a significant difference for me, and is the main reason I now mostly carry a gun with a RDS. The same gun without the RDS is easier to conceal, and I don't have to mess with dot brightness. But do I grab the irons gun? Not that often anymore, even in shitty weather. A closed-emitter optic has been a game changer for me.
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
And some of the limitations of a dot you mentioned, you can reasonably expect will improve with future technology as well so it’s forward thinking to start the transition now.
If you have a good index and you’re aiming with the whole gun you should be good for body shots at 3 to 5 yards even when moving.
I went through a couple.phases before the current one started in 2017. First one was CZ75 in 40 with a factory frame mounted C More type in the late 90s.
It took some actual work to get over that hump, dry work in particular.
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